Hi all.
I have an Izzo Alex Duetto IV, and I am very happy with it.
I have one question though.

Often we hear about the brew ratio, and I am presently working to get a 2.3 - 2.5 ratio.

But then I started wondering if the time should be counted from the start of the pump or from first espresso drop in the cup?

The latter will be the result if using the timer on my scale which can start when the scale registers a weight increase (I think), the first will be the result if using the built in timer of the duetto.

Moreover, I guess there may be difference in the time delay from the pump starts and until the the first drop hits the cup too, dependent on grinding, tamping and the like.

It may actually influent quite a bit on the brew ratio, as there may be several seconds difference in starting time between the two options.

It may make no sense to discuss brew ratio if it is unclear when to start the timer.

Presently, I am working with the built in Duetto timer.

I can't find a clear common ground on this. Can you help?

IMO, first drop. Coffee vagaries* - clinkers, quakers, shells, broken, etc. - can affect the time to first drop.

* much more of a problem today than in the past.

I'm not sure what time has to do with ratio. Ratio is purely weight. Stop by the appearance of the stream (blonding, thinning), or weight in the cup, not by time.

Time is an output. It is a value you can look at that helps detect that either something has changed or there is variability in your process.

Hitting "18.0 g in, 36 g out, in 25 seconds" or whatever is not a perfect shot. It is a first benchmark to get reasonably close, and then only for traditional shots.

When to start timing is a never-ending debate. Do what you feel is the most repeatable. For a classic pump-driven machine, I prefer pump-on.

Espresso is never 100% repeatable. In decades of trying, I've never had identical shots from top shops and an award winning baristas.

Brew ratio is no guarantor. Time is simply a yardstick. Timing from first drop is more accurate unless one uses two hands, one to start the pump and one to start the timer.

The only 'perfect shot' arbiter is taste. All the other inputs are noise.

Stener1000 wrote:... But then I started wondering if the time should be counted from the start of the pump or from first espresso drop in the cup?

Assuming no pre-infusion and no flow control, time starts when the pump starts in most machines. (The time that most people talk about.)

However, the usefulness of time depends on how you dial in espresso. There are five main variables that are easily defined in an espresso recipe: on the input side, dose, temperature, and grinder setting; on the output side, yield and time. For example, a simple algorithm is to fix dose and temperature, then adjust the grinder by taste to determine a yield, and then fine-tune taste with grind time (and temperature). However, in a machine offering timed durations, it may be easier to fix time earlier in an algorithm. People often do not fix time as time has the least impact on taste compared to dose and yield.

Jeff wrote:I'm not sure what time has to do with ratio. Ratio is purely weight. Stop by the appearance of the stream (blonding, thinning), or weight in the cup, not by time.

Time is an output. It is a value you can look at that helps detect that either something has changed or there is variability in your process.

Hitting "18.0 g in, 36 g out, in 25 seconds" or whatever is not a perfect shot. It is a first benchmark to get reasonably close, and then only for traditional shots.

When to start timing is a never-ending debate. Do what you feel is the most repeatable. For a classic pump-driven machine, I prefer pump-on.

Thx. Make sense. I just tested. The 18 in 36 out would approx. Make the same shot if using "first drop in Cup" and 25 sec, and using approx. 29 sec with the machine timer.

I use time as a key brewing feature together with dose weight and shot weight, but more and more am I looking on the flow itself, as I use a bottomless filter.

Thanks all! And thanks for this awesome forum. I can always count on someone having an opinion on a rare subject within espresso