Controlling shot extraction pattern - Page 3

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
Abe Carmeli (original poster)
Team HB
Posts: 845
Joined: 19 years ago

#21: Post by Abe Carmeli (original poster) »

malachi wrote:final note - i think you might be getting fooled when comparing grinders. are you weighing your dose after you've dosed and distributed? if you're dosing by weight, that's the weight that matters.
No chance of that. A full leveled basket using the Mini, will be ~ 3-4 grams heavier than the same volume using the M3. The key then to succeed with downdosing using the Mini is coarse ground. That makes sense as coarse ground occupies more volume.
Abe Carmeli

User avatar
malachi
Posts: 2695
Joined: 19 years ago

#22: Post by malachi »

So you are weighing post distribution?

Cool.

Oh... one note... I'm not using a Mazzer. I'm using a re-badged DRM (not the dual conical/flat but their straight flat burr model).
What's in the cup is what matters.

Abe Carmeli (original poster)
Team HB
Posts: 845
Joined: 19 years ago

#23: Post by Abe Carmeli (original poster) »

It's good to see you back in the game Chris. We missed you. 8)
Abe Carmeli

User avatar
HB
Admin
Posts: 21981
Joined: 19 years ago

#24: Post by HB »

Abe Carmeli wrote:An extraction pattern from the outside in (where the center of the basket is the last to saturate) is caused by what I call Schomer's Crater.
Barry mentioned earlier his preference for the stock La Marzocco cinch-waist double basket. I happen to have a couple lounging in the drawer, so the last few days I've used them instead of my usual rounded 18 gram Faema-style basket. I need more time to evaluate if there is a noteworthy difference in shot quality, but they do appear to extract more evenly. Instead of the initial "donut" extraction I see with the Faema basket, the LM double seems to favor a more evenly centered extraction. It may be my imagination, but the extraction also seems "tighter", i.e., the liquid spread across the bottom of the basket during the extraction is thinner and the surface of the crema is very glossy.

Anyway, without waxing too poetically on the merits of one basket over another, I posit that the difference you noted in extraction patterns may also be influenced by your preferred basket.
Dan Kehn

User avatar
malachi
Posts: 2695
Joined: 19 years ago

#25: Post by malachi »

I vastly prefer the ridged LM basket (in other words, I'm on Barry's side here).
I know it's harder to work with - but the results seem better to me.
What's in the cup is what matters.

User avatar
AndyS
Posts: 1053
Joined: 19 years ago

#26: Post by AndyS »

Abe Carmeli wrote:When I watch the bottom of the basket during a shot, I can clearly see an extraction pattern. For the longest time it was from the basket outside perimeter to the center. No matter which tamper I used. This issue came up before, with no clear answer as to what is causing it.

Hi Abe:

First of all, I don't think think the initial donut extraction pattern is a problem; everyone knows that donuts go well with coffee.

Having uttered that pearl of wisdom, I agree with Dan, the LM ridged basket has less of a tendency to produce the initial donut.

With a ridgeless basket, there is another technique that you might try. As you know, the M3 grinder's distribution pattern leaves a shallow crater in the center of the basket. Don't go out of your way to fill it in. In other words, leave the center a little underdosed, tap the pf on the counter a couple times, then tamp. For me, this seems to leave the center of the basket a little "soft" and the pour begins more evenly with less of the donut effect. YMMV; the results of dose and tamp are very sensitive to subtle variations.

BTW, do the "hole in the middle" shots taste lousy to you, or do they just bug your visual sense?
-AndyS
VST refractometer/filter basket beta tester, no financial interest in the company

Abe Carmeli (original poster)
Team HB
Posts: 845
Joined: 19 years ago

#27: Post by Abe Carmeli (original poster) »

AndyS wrote: Hi Abe:

First of all, I don't think think the initial donut extraction pattern is a problem; everyone knows that donuts go well with coffee.
What Barista techniques can I use to get those with Krispy Kreem Filling? :wink:
With a ridgeless basket, there is another technique that you might try. As you know, the M3 grinder's distribution pattern leaves a shallow crater in the center of the basket. Don't go out of your way to fill it in. In other words, leave the center a little underdosed, tap the pf on the counter a couple times, then tamp. For me, this seems to leave the center of the basket a little "soft" and the pour begins more evenly with less of the donut effect. YMMV; the results of dose and tamp are very sensitive to subtle variations.
Yes, it is the point I've been making. Schomer's crater leaves the center more dense, hence the donut. With the M3, there isn't a problem as I mentioned in my previous post, since one does not need to create a crater to dose 15 grams. I was interested in producing the same even saturation result using the Mini, and 15 grams of coffee. Malachi came up with the answer on how to do that. As to the L/M basket, it is better in general when it comes to even saturation, however, if you use Schomer's technique and leave a crater you will still get the donut, though it will be less pronounced.
BTW, do the "hole in the middle" shots taste lousy to you, or do they just bug your visual sense?
It started with the visual. I was wondering if equal saturation will improve the taste. The donut shape can produce an excellent shot, however, I'm always looking for the next incremental improvement, and that looked like a promising lead. Bottom line, it is hard to do comparison shot tests, as no two shots are ever the same. In such cases I let time make the decision for me. I use one technique for a month then change to the other. At the changing point I should be able to notice a difference if there is one.
Abe Carmeli

User avatar
barry
Posts: 637
Joined: 19 years ago

#28: Post by barry »

malachi wrote:I vastly prefer the ridged LM basket (in other words, I'm on Barry's side here).
I know it's harder to work with - but the results seem better to me.
i like 'em mainly because i find them easier to work with! it's easy to tell overdose and underdose; can't hook up into the group on the former, and a 58mm tamper scrapes the basket on the latter.

jasonmolinari
Posts: 513
Joined: 19 years ago

#29: Post by jasonmolinari »

Looking at the Stockfleths' video, it looks like the rotation only levels the perimeter, and the center and excess coffee is still brushed off Schomer style...is that not the case?

jason

User avatar
malachi
Posts: 2695
Joined: 19 years ago

#30: Post by malachi »

It's not a leveling technique - it's a distribution technique and it covers the entire surface.

The idea is that you rotate a pile of coffee in a circular pattern around a center point in the basket while applying downwards pressure.
What's in the cup is what matters.