Change in taste of result over time?

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
kris772
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#1: Post by kris772 »

I've seen some comments referring to this - you pull your shot, take a sip, like it, pause to remove and clean the pf and group, sip again and - it's - different. Could be better, worse, meh, but definitely different.
I am learning that if it's super, take a moment right then to savor it all. and if it's meh, let it sit for a moment as it will likely improve.
I need to rent-a-Dan, or rent-a-Jeff (etc) for a minute to learn how they label tastes on brews, as I am poor on labeling other than "I really like this one!!!" or "meh".

But wondering what is changing here. I do not stir the crema and I usually latte with unsweetened almond milk. (usually 19.0g ->40g, 20sec from first drip, ~5sec before first drip, tons of crema probably 'cause using fresh beans (frozen at ~8 days) ).

In any case I am having great fun with this! even a "meh" shot is truly enjoyed.
Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!

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Jeff
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#2: Post by Jeff »

Here are a couple resources on how some people think about flavors past "sour" and "bitter"

https://counterculturecoffee.com/learn/ ... avor-wheel

https://notbadcoffee.com/flavor-wheel-en/

It will be more challenging to pick out flavors in a "milk" drink.

Hot drinks taste mainly "hot". Some people have said that espresso gets bitter when it cools (or was it sour?). I believe it is more that their espresso was bitter all along, but was subdued beneath the sensation of hot.

My own habit is that I don't preheat cups and don't taste until I've cleaned out and dried the basket and rinsed the spoon and puck screen. I stir as espresso falling into the cup doesn't seem to mix the early and late portions of the shot well, especially at classic flow rates.

kris772 (original poster)
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#3: Post by kris772 (original poster) » replying to Jeff »

Thanks!
I tend not so much to get the "hot" taste as, after latte-ing it, it isn't really that too hot - straight espresso is too strong for me to enjoy - hot or warm or cold.

Since most of my drinks are with that unsweetened almond milk, that just falls into the background for me. Early on (with a hot machine) I was only getting bitter or sour. As I am using a cooler machine I am getting other flavors as well - the wheels will be a big help - having fun with identifying!

I do not pre-heat my cups or graduated beaker into which I brew other than to leave them on the top of the machine so they are "not cold" but just slightly warm. I do not pre-heat the pf holder/basket. With my present procedure I suppose I could but laziness has ruled and to a certain real extent "keeping things constant".
Thanks!
Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!

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cafeIKE
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#4: Post by cafeIKE »

Jeff wrote:I believe it is more that their espresso was bitter all along, but was subdued beneath the sensation of hot.
'Sweetness' perception changes with temperature. Eat ice cream at room temperature and you might gag :shock:

FWIW, I brew into a warm cup, clean the group and then sample. Taste delta between hot off the presses and rested a bit is mitigated and the 'actual' flavor persists more evenly.

PIXIllate
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#5: Post by PIXIllate »

Tasting hot will deminish your perception of flavours. There's a sweet spot and I follow pretty much the same routine as Jeff. Pull the shot into a room temperature demitasse, set aside. Empty and rinse the basket, flush the group, reset the scale, wipe the drip tray.... Then I stir the shot, sit down with my notebook and a glass of water and often let it cool for an additional minute. If there's a taste defect it was there when it was hot, not because you let it cool.

kris772 (original poster)
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#6: Post by kris772 (original poster) »

cafeIKE wrote:'Sweetness' perception changes with temperature. Eat ice cream at room temperature and you might gag :shock:

FWIW, I brew into a warm cup, clean the group and then sample. Taste delta between hot off the presses and rested a bit is mitigated and the 'actual' flavor persists more evenly.
Thanks - nah, I'll eat ice cream at any temp! :mrgreen:

So you have a minute or 2 delay before sipping.
It's late here (6:30PMEDT) but I really wanted a shot so only let machine warm up for 30 min and then pulled. I liked the first sip so this time I took my own advice and continued sipping until it was gone - VERY enjoyable - gotta do that more often. Tried the second taste-wheel link and got spicy/ orange-cinnamon. slightly sweet but very background. Lingers long and pleasing on my tongue. I will work more with both those taste wheels immediately after drinking a shot to train my taste buds and brain. Delicious, but gotta go clean the brew head! I just Cafiza'ed it before shutting down last night and apparently I rinsed it well enough as I got no off taste from either pull today. Did taste more clean.

You are (I assume) drinking it straight. It may well be that the change-over-time that I am experiencing is due to a reaction between the hot espresso and the slightly less hot stretched almond milk, but i any case I seem to like it right after I add the milk, so that is what I will do.

Lowering the temp has made a world of difference for me - much widening the area of the sweetspot to more of a sweet-area, making it much easier to avoid the bitter, or sour ends of the spectrum, where, before I seemed to be balancing on a knife edge. Now, virtually any pull is good.
Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!

kris772 (original poster)
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#7: Post by kris772 (original poster) »

The wheels help a lot. This morning's was bright spicy nutty cocoa almond. (half courthouse half RB sweet brazil)(new 1kg courthouse is only at 4 days and wanted to finish old.)(the courthouse broadens the RB(redbird) )(Maybe order Prana next as RB is nearing end.)(I am finding the 8oz mason jars a bit fiddly and will use 16oz jars when I freeze courthouse.)
Life is too short for bad espresso! - Thunk-ed, NOT stirred!

exidrion

#8: Post by exidrion »

Jeff wrote: Hot drinks taste mainly "hot". Some people have said that espresso gets bitter when it cools (or was it sour?). I believe it is more that their espresso was bitter all along, but was subdued beneath the sensation of hot.

My own habit is that I don't preheat cups and don't taste until I've cleaned out and dried the basket and rinsed the spoon and puck screen. I stir as espresso falling into the cup doesn't seem to mix the early and late portions of the shot well, especially at classic flow rates.
I followed this and pixellate's advice and didn't preheat the cup and let it cool a little before I drank a shot yesterday and wow, what a difference. What I thought was sour, now tasted slightly bitter, and actually better than previous shots. Most newbie advice tells you to make sure everything is preheated before tasting. Interesting.

PIXIllate
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#9: Post by PIXIllate »

As if I don't already measure/quantify enough variables when it comes to this silly little drink, I'll try to remember to grab my Thermapen tomorrow morning and measure my ideal drinking temperature.

I should probably seek professional help.

Giampiero

#10: Post by Giampiero »

I had the same palate feeling that, sipping the espresso about 5 minutes later, it make me feel more flavors, especially all the flavors i can smell just after brewed.
Palate and smells are obviously a very "personal" matter, so i wont dig in any science conclusion, that's just my experience.