RNAV wrote:Thanks for the suggestions. @BillBurrGrinder: I just ordered some Blue Jaguar, so we'll see how that goes.

No PID, but I am running an Eric's thermometer. Shots start at 206, then end ~203. Given a ~4 degree temp drop from grouphead to puck, I should be getting 202-199F.

Are you saying I should adjust my grind finer (i.e. more of a ristretto)?

Are you using flush and go technique? If so, you may brewing at a higher temperature than you think. According to Eric's manual the puck temp is 3-5 degrees HIGHER than what the group thermometer reads, so if you are ending your shot at 203, your puck temp is at 206 -208 which is obviously much higher than your 199-202 target.

I don't know your machine or flush routine but on my QM Anita if I start at 206 on Eric's thermometer and end at 202 my shots will be hot and bitter as well. I tend to be about ~5 degrees cooler than you to get sweet smooth shots with most coffees.

You have been using quality coffee so my guess is that is not the variable. Just for goofs try a cooler temperature using whatever routine you are used to using. Hope its as simple as that.

Edit - I just saw the post above mine. I agree with that at least with my machine.

allemania wrote:Are you using flush and go technique? If so, you may brewing at a higher temperature than you think. According to Eric's manual the puck temp is 3-5 degrees HIGHER than what the group thermometer reads, so if you are ending your shot at 203, your puck temp is at 206 -208 which is obviously much higher than your 199-202 target.

I am using the flush-and-go technique for the initial shot, and then waiting for subsequent shots. Per this post from Eric, the graphs show the reading at the grouphead (i.e. thermometer) is higher than the reading at the puck. In that graph, the temp probe read ~207 and resulted in a roughly 201 shot temp.

Am I missing something?

The thermometer reads the grouphead temperature at equilibrium when the machine is fully warmed up. In reality it is above the large mass of brass in the E61 group. Eric's method was not optimal for my machine that happens to be a QM Anita as is his. I don't know why but something must be different. Also the Anita has I believe cool water flowing into the HX whereas many other models use the warm water. This affects flush methods on different machines.

Here is what I do and did this morning producing a wonderfully sweet and balanced shot with Brazil Sitio Baixadado.

My PID for the boiler is set to 250*. I flush quickly to about 200*. The thermometer equilibrates a a couple of degrees below 200 and I wait till it recovers to 200*. At 200* (you can choose lower or higher by a couple of degrees to vary) I grind my coffee, remove the portafilter and tamp. I then flush again to a desired temperature usually between 206-204. The thermometer goes initially up to about 210. I put back the portafilter, wait 15 seconds and initiate the shot. The thermometer reads about 201-202 at the start and declines during the shot.

Theory: My thought with my routine is that I have a stable mass of brass in the group at 200 or so degrees. With the flush at the end I introduce COLDER water into the hx. Waiting 15 seconds warms it a bit and going through the stable group gets it UP to the desired temperature. Correct or not I can vary this a few degrees either way and get really fine espresso very consistently. Subsequent shots are initiated when the thermometer gets to 198-201 or so and I simply vary that final flush a bit to take that into account. It works for me.

RNAV wrote:I am using the flush-and-go technique for the initial shot, and then waiting for subsequent shots. Per this post from Eric, the graphs show the reading at the grouphead (i.e. thermometer) is higher than the reading at the puck. In that graph, the temp probe read ~207 and resulted in a roughly 201 shot temp.

Am I missing something?

RNAV,

I looked at the link you posted. I believe the graph values you are referring to are for the "flush-and-wait" method. And you are correct, for THAT method the puck temps will be 3-5 degrees below the group thermometer reading.

However, for the "flush-and-go" method, which is what you are using, the indicated temp on the thermometer will be LOWER than the temperature at the puck. I have reread Eric's manual more times that I'd like to admit but feel certain that I understand it now.

Here's a link to the Eric's PDF that explains it: http://users.rcn.com/erics/DigThermAdptr7.pdf

The 2nd paragraph immediately after the illustration states the difference in measurement between the two methods.

Hope this helps. My own experience with the Profitec Pro 500 over the past year has led me to brew at temps around 194-195 on the thermometer (so puck temp around 197-200) once the extraction is in the stable portion. I am making flat whites and have found the flavor to be best in this range. I, too, have been pulling Redbird Espresso as well as some other Redbird single origins.

Lastly, we have different machines but both E61 HX's so I'm hoping they share enough thermodynamic similarities so that Eric's information applies to both machines.

Marcus

Ok, upon further review, what I'm actually doing is the backflush method originally posted here. EricS subsequently logged some data, revealing this graph.

Based on this, I [think I'm at the correct temp for the first shot. For subsequent shots, I wait about 3 minutes from the end of the first shot to the beginning of the next shot. I do a short flush (1-2 sec), and then brew the shot. The grouphead temp at idle is usually up to ~197 to 198 prior to pulling the shot. The temp probe usually goes up to about 206, then down to 203/202.

So I think I'm ok on the first shot -- what do you all think? What about my subsequent shots?

Thanks a bunch for helping me figure this out.

So I figured I'd chime in here with some recent success I had on a bean I wasn't familiar with.

My uncle gifted me a ziploc of some De Mello Palheta beans that I had never tried before, and I tossed them in the Sette at the settings I had in place. I knew it was a roll of the dice to see how close I could get to what was needed based on the age of the bean, or other parameters the roaster suggested. Well, the shot I pulled was by far the sweetest, most jammy tasting shot i've had to date. Obviously it was a bean that was much lighter than I'm used to and I think it was an absolute fluke that I lucked into it tasting as good as it did...but I have to say, there IS such a thing as sweet espresso!

To the threadstarter: Keep up the fight. It IS possible. I'm not sure what beans you're used to using, but this look onto the lighter side of life (beans) was eye opening for me.

For what it's worth, I went 18g in, 36 grams out, WDT method and with about a 5 second flush from my Bezzera BZ10. Brew took about 28 seconds.

RNAV wrote:Ok, upon further review, what I'm actually doing is the backflush method originally posted here. EricS subsequently logged some data, revealing this graph.

Based on this, I [think I'm at the correct temp for the first shot. For subsequent shots, I wait about 3 minutes from the end of the first shot to the beginning of the next shot. I do a short flush (1-2 sec), and then brew the shot. The grouphead temp at idle is usually up to ~197 to 198 prior to pulling the shot. The temp probe usually goes up to about 206, then down to 203/202.

So I think I'm ok on the first shot -- what do you all think? What about my subsequent shots?

Thanks a bunch for helping me figure this out.

Sorry for not answering sooner. Reading that you are using the backflush method threw me a curveball. I'm not that familiar with it (I recall running across a thread about it once but never mentally dove in) so I'll need to familiarize myself with it.

However, I'm going to make the assumption that regardless of flush method for the initial shot that all subsequent shots (using your 3 minute interval example) are going to follow the same routine which you mentioned you are using - a short flush (let's say 1 to 5 seconds depending on one's brand of E61 HX) followed by maybe a 5 to 10 second gap until the lever is raised for pulling the next shot. In my eyes that is the flush and go method and we are back to the temp at the puck being 3-5 higher than the thermometer readout.

If (big if? ) my assumption is correct, then your temp readout of 206 (beginning of extraction) declining to 203/203 (end of extraction) is resulting in very high puck temps.

After giving all this too much thought I circled back to why we are having this conversation - you're searching for great espresso! You obviously understand all the parameters so if I were in your shoes, I'd start flushing a little longer on those subsequent shots see if can drop your brew temps slightly and most importantly see if you notice a change flavor.

I hope this helps. Keep us posted on your results!

Marcus