"Best" dose?

#1: Post by **maccompatible** » April 16th, 2023, 10:05 pm

Since I started out making espresso around 10 years ago, I've always defaulted to 16g for a new coffee. Sometimes I'll go down to 14-15 grams for particularly difficult to extract coffees, or bump up to 17-18g for darker roasts. But 16g seems to be home base. The more I read and watch online and in cafes, it seems like the standard default out there is around 17 or 18g, and adjust from there as needed to dial in. I've been searching around all the discussion around dose, and the best I can find is that it's all "to taste." But if that's the case, is my taste just different than everyone else's? My coffee does seem a bit duller than what I can get in cafes, but I always blamed that on stock ceramic Baratza Vario burrs in comparison to a mythos or K30 or whatever the cafe is using. Of course mine doesn't taste as good.
I know the answer is probably just to experiment, but since it seems like everyone does something different than me, I'm just curious if there's something I'm missing. My basket is the stock precision 17g basket that came with my GS3. So am I technically underdosing all my shots? Should I expect that they'll taste better if I increase my default dose to 17 or 18g?
Even going back to the basics, referring to the "adjusting dose and grind" pinned post, there isn't much mention of output. With grinding coarser and increasing dose (with the same flow), should I target the same ratio to get a "less bland" shot, or should the output remain the same?

#2: Post by **boren** » April 16th, 2023, 10:44 pm

If you're using a straight wall basket and maintaining the same extraction ratio I don't think there should be any significant difference in taste between different doses. I do think you want the maximum dose that fits because it reduces the chance of channeling. The thinner the puck, the more prone to channeling it is.

What's the maximum that fits? To quote myself from another post, "the maximum that fits without the coffee touching the shower screen during extraction. If you're using a puck screen, the only way to really tell is to monitor flow rate (e.g. with a suitable scale). If it starts to decrease during extraction instead of increase, you likely should reduce the dose."

#3: Post by **BaristaBob** » April 16th, 2023, 10:57 pm

Not to stray to far from your question Matthew, but with a great machine like the GS/3 you should start thinking about upping your grinder game. There are some great ones out there that might give you that "cafe" taste or probably even better. As for dose, with a new unknown coffee for me, I do experiment with the dose....mostly from 17 to 20g and then stick with the dose that pleases me most. I control my headspace by changing baskets when necessary.

April 16th, 2023, 11:17 pm

BaristaBob wrote:with a great machine like the GS/3 you should start thinking about upping your grinder game.

I have a lagom P64 on pre-order.

Estimated mid-June, and I'm definitely counting every day. I just finished med school and residency so there's a lot of games to be upped, and I'm thrilled I was able to order a nicer grinder. I know that's gonna make a huge difference, but I'm just trying to understand and do everything I can in the meantime, especially with how much the espresso world has changes since I started. Just switched to single dosing my vario and that already made a huge difference. And I bought some bean cellars to store my freshly roasted coffee in.

boren wrote:I don't think there should be any significant difference in taste between different doses.

That seems contrary to the pinned post.. unless we're assuming that post means "higher dose but same output makes a less bland shot."

boren wrote:What's the maximum that fits?

To be honest, I'm not quite sure on this machine and basket. I was already set on my default 16g dose before getting the GS3. I did do some testing on my prior basket on the silvia, but haven't really done much testing on what my dose should be since I got the GS3 as life has been... busy to say the least. Now that things are starting to slow down I'm trying to really figure out if what I'm doing is best or just what I've always done.

#5: Post by **Jake_G** » April 17th, 2023, 7:16 am

maccompatible wrote:That seems contrary to the pinned post..

Quite so.

Many folks seem to be on the path that suggests they are done dialing in when they get the grinder set to deliver their standard recipe in their standard brew time. But truthfully this is just the very beginning of dialing in a coffee by taste. It sets your baseline, but nothing else, and it literally does not take taste into account in the slightest.

Since I also have a GS/3, and the same straight-ish-walled basket available, I can offer some relevant thoughts. First, I recommend establishing a maximum dose for a specific bean when you get a new one to try. Do this by simply prepping a basket, locking in, and then pulling it back out to see if you can see the shower screw mark on the puck. If you can see the mark and it's not too deep (isn't breaking the puck up), you're really close to the maximum dose that will work in your machine with that specific coffee, grinder and grind setting. Grinding finer often allows a bit more to fit in the basket, so if you find that 17g fits in the basket with a slight impression, but your shot comes out in 12s, you can likely tighten your grind quite a bit and fit 17.5g in the basket once you've done so. It's a process.

Anyway. Once you've found your maximum dose that pours in a given time, that should represent the the coarse end of grind adjustment for this coffee. Pull a few shots at this end and taste them.

Next, lower your dose by 1 gram and tighten the grind a bit to keep the time the same. Pull a few shots here and taste. Try keeping the same ratio (less yield than the max dose) and try keeping the yield the same as the max dose and again, taste. Swish the espresso in your mouth. Identify what you taste and what the difference is from what you initially tried with the highest dose that fit.

Then go down by another gram and repeat. And another gram. And another.

Trust me, the espresso will taste different as you lower the dose and tighten the grind, it will get softer, less punchy and a bit clearer. You have reached the limit on low dose when you can't pull a good shot because of grind or channeling, or when astringency takes over. On the 17g basket, I suspect 13-14g would be the point where the tamper doesn't really fit the bottom half of the basket. Wherever this end point is on your grinder is the fine end of the spectrum for dialing in this specific coffee and basket combo on your machine.

Anyway, every single coffee will morph and transform in the cup to highlight different roast and origin characteristics as you perform this type of dial in. While what you care about when you are done dialing in is the resultant taste in the cup, what you care about while you are in the process of dialing in is how those flavors change as you are lowering the dose and adjusting grind & yield. The goal is to reach a point where you try a "home base" recipe of a new coffee and you instinctively know what you should do to shift the balance of flavors in the cup in a way that accentuates what the bean has to offer in a way that maximizes your personal preferences. If 16:32 in 30s is home base for you, you start there and then say, ooh. This coffee is way too mellow, I need to increase dose to 18 and keep the yield the same to see if I can get that malic acid note to pop out a bit more. Or maybe you've got something that is very tart. Perhaps there you decide to keep the ratio the same, and drop the dose to 14g and tighten the grind to try and mellow the acidity to let the caramel sweetness have a bit more of center stage.

Sometimes, the home base is just right. But don't ever assume it is. Coffee is a surprisingly dynamic thing. Experimentation almost always yields fruitful results, as the likelihood that an arbitrary setpoint is ideal to your tastes across the gamut of available beans and roast degrees is quite slim indeed.

Cheers!

- Jake

#6: Post by **espressotime** » April 17th, 2023, 7:31 am

GS3 should be at least same quality as coffee shop.

April 17th, 2023, 8:52 am

100%

I've never come across a bean I couldn't make shine at least as well as what a shop has been able to. Generally, since I'm preparing coffee for myself, according to my tastes, I'm able to prepare something at home that is better than what the shop is preparing, which is dialed in - at best - to be a crowd pleaser.

I'll also second the the opinion that, while the Vario is a great home grinder, your P64 should pull back the veil a bit further in terms of allowing a more precise dial in process. The ceramic burrs tend to be quite a bit more blended than your average flat grinder. While not as "extraction agnostic" as the Sette (read Jim's review on that grinder for more context), I'd expect the dynamic range of your P64 as you explore different doses to be much larger than what you'll find with the Vario.

Cheers!

- Jake

April 17th, 2023, 11:26 am

Jake_G wrote:Many folks seem to be on the path that suggests they are done dialing in when they get the grinder set to deliver their standard recipe in their standard brew time.

I'd agree that's kinda where I am. I think part of that stemmed from issues with the vario. It felt wasteful to purge old coffee with each grind adjustment, so if I nail the ratio, I should stop tweaking and wasting coffee. Now that I'm single dosing, I feel a lot more confident about making these changes and have revisited the issue of doing so.
It's been a bit confusing because it seems like there's a lot of conflicting information out there. The Hoffmann video on dose says to keep dose a constant for your setup. Matt Perger's video on extraction recommends locking in the dose first as well. And with everyone on social media dosing the exact same 17g or 18g every time with every coffee, I assumed that was the right thing to do. But of course different doses are going to taste different since you have to change the grind to compensate, and that implies different coffees would taste better at different doses. So here I am. Nearly 10 years later just now asking basic questions about dialing in.

Jake_G wrote:Next, lower your dose by 1 gram and tighten the grind a bit to keep the time the same. Pull a few shots here and taste. Try keeping the same ratio (less yield than the max dose) and try keeping the yield the same as the max dose and again, taste. Swish the espresso in your mouth. Identify what you taste and what the difference is from what you initially tried with the highest dose that fit.

Unsurprisingly, dialing in by taste is driven by taste and not rules. So for some coffees, keeping the same ratio will taste better, but some may taste better with more or less yield. And based on what the coffee is or what I feel like is present or lacking will determine whether I try lower or higher yield.

Jake_G wrote:If 16:32 in 30s is home base for you, you start there and then say, ooh. This coffee is way too mellow, I need to increase dose to 18 and keep the yield the same to see if I can get that malic acid note to pop out a bit more. Or maybe you've got something that is very tart. Perhaps there you decide to keep the ratio the same, and drop the dose to 14g and tighten the grind to try and mellow the acidity to let the caramel sweetness have a bit more of center stage.

So it sounds like you would plan on making multiple changes at a time. Not just changing the dose but also the brew ratio. I guess when you're used to what each variable does, you know when more than one needs a tweak at a time.

Jake_G wrote:Sometimes, the home base is just right. But don't ever assume it is.

I think this is exactly what I needed to hear in starting this thread. I've been pulling 16g in 32g out on every single shot for years.

#9: Post by **Jake_G** » April 17th, 2023, 11:43 am

maccompatible wrote:So it sounds like you would plan on making multiple changes at a time. Not just changing the dose but also the brew ratio. I guess when you're used to what each variable does, you know when more than one needs a tweak at a time.

All the advice to change one thing at a time is good advice to avoid mass frustration, but the goal of leveraging the scientific method when learning is... to learn. Once you've learnt how your machine combo behaves, you can approach things with much less rigor because you've developed a gut instinct based off your experiences. I'm pretty fast and loose with my dial in, but it didn't come easy to me. I spent time like you locked into a standard recipe. Then I started moving things around, one at a time and really explored the extraction space to understand what my grinder does when I drop dose and tighten the grind, or what my machine does when I raise the brew temperature 2 degrees.

It's not like I have it all figured out - hardly! But I do have a well-developed understanding of where I am likely to be in the multi-dimensional extraction space and how each of the tools I have at my disposal will work together to move me from where I am to where I want to go.

Don't feel bad. You now have the opportunity to go play around and see where things land. And you'll really enjoy the new grinder when it arrives.

Cheers!

- Jake

April 17th, 2023, 7:21 pm

Now that I'm single dosing my vario, it's really easy to adjust the grind shot to shot. So I played around today.
Shot 1 was 16g in, 32g out in 28 seconds. Harsh, bitter, overly bright, but no sweetness.
Shot 2 was same grind setting but 18g in, 32g out in 32 seconds. Bitterness was gone, and acid was mellowed, but much less sweetness and no real tasting notes. Tasted compressed.
Shot 3 was a coarser grind, 18g in, 36g out in 28 seconds. Bright again, but pleasant. Starting to taste fruity and sweet. Gonna experiment more tomorrow.

Literally a night and day difference with different doses, even keeping everything else the same. Kicking myself hard for not thinking about this sooner and just always doing the same thing.