Beginner in need of assistance with acidic espresso
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arian
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 5 years ago
Hey home-barista community,
Heres a little self-introduction, not crucial to this post. I have been lurking around the forums for a while now and have finally decided to pull the trigger and get deeper into espresso. I recently bought a Rancilio Silvia v1 with a PID (without pre-infusion) and pressure gauge. The guy I bought it from is a commercial espresso machine tech (seemed legit), overall the machine was well taken care of, descaled, backflushed, all the good stuff. It came with a spouted and naked portafilter, VST (not sure what size) and blank baskets. I also bought a Baratza Sette 270Wi, I installed one shim and the scale is pretty spot on.
Anyways, now on to what I need help with. My shots keep coming out on the acidic side, not necessarily sour but it has a decent acidity to it, every time. I started with a medium roast from Madcap called Hunapu (from Guatemala), I bought it from Barista here in Portland, OR. Roasted on 7/29, I went through it yesterday. I then bought a darker roast from Water Avenue (also a local Portland company) named El Toro, from Central and South America, roasted 8/5 (maybe this was too fresh?). Finished 1 of 2 bags today. Both beans are supposed to be on the chocolate side of things.
On to my technique. I did not track my shots for the Madcap. However, I have done so for the El Toro. Attached is an image of these pulls. I had a hard time dialing into a good 1:2 ratio, 18g in, about 36g out in about 25-30 seconds. However, once I got that down I still had some acidity, not as much but it was still there. Even when my shots should have definitely been bitter they were still acidic, sometimes outright sour. I thought this could be due to temperature as I have read many posts suggest. So I got a thermocouple/ thermometer, calibrated, and tested temperature at the portafilter. I found the PID to be about 16F above temp at the portafilter. So where my chart says 210, the portafilter is at 194. I do not think temperature is suspect.
I've been using the paperclip distribution method, on and off trying the stockfleth move, and my tamp seems to be pretty consistent. I also just got a distribution tool from amazon today (the last few recorded shots are with this). I've been watching for channeling (I've been using the naked portafilter) and on occasion, I get channeling, definitely on the quick pulls, but not on the "dialed in" shots. I have yet to check the pH/ hardness of my water, but online research tells me our water is soft, around 25ppm. For pressure, with a blind basket, I hit 10bar and with coffee, I sit right at 9bar.
Not quite sure what is going on, I am definitely new to this, been at it for just a week; I probably just need more practice. I used to use a cheap DeLonghi so I have "some" experience. However, I am starting to think I may just not know what espresso is supposed to "really taste like" (I know quite subjective), most of the time when I get coffee its a cappuccino. I do know that I am not the biggest fan of the light/ sharp fruity flavors that a lot of specialty shops in Portland are doing at the moment, hence why I have gone with chocolate, caramel roasts.
I apologize for the very lengthy post, I wanted to try and cover all the bases to avoid the back and forth Q&A diagnosis I see in many posts. Hopefully, this essay won't deter responses. I am doing a training session at Clive Coffee this weekend, maybe that will help address some issues, either way I am looking forward to it. Attached are a few images.
Thanks,
Arian
Heres a little self-introduction, not crucial to this post. I have been lurking around the forums for a while now and have finally decided to pull the trigger and get deeper into espresso. I recently bought a Rancilio Silvia v1 with a PID (without pre-infusion) and pressure gauge. The guy I bought it from is a commercial espresso machine tech (seemed legit), overall the machine was well taken care of, descaled, backflushed, all the good stuff. It came with a spouted and naked portafilter, VST (not sure what size) and blank baskets. I also bought a Baratza Sette 270Wi, I installed one shim and the scale is pretty spot on.
Anyways, now on to what I need help with. My shots keep coming out on the acidic side, not necessarily sour but it has a decent acidity to it, every time. I started with a medium roast from Madcap called Hunapu (from Guatemala), I bought it from Barista here in Portland, OR. Roasted on 7/29, I went through it yesterday. I then bought a darker roast from Water Avenue (also a local Portland company) named El Toro, from Central and South America, roasted 8/5 (maybe this was too fresh?). Finished 1 of 2 bags today. Both beans are supposed to be on the chocolate side of things.
On to my technique. I did not track my shots for the Madcap. However, I have done so for the El Toro. Attached is an image of these pulls. I had a hard time dialing into a good 1:2 ratio, 18g in, about 36g out in about 25-30 seconds. However, once I got that down I still had some acidity, not as much but it was still there. Even when my shots should have definitely been bitter they were still acidic, sometimes outright sour. I thought this could be due to temperature as I have read many posts suggest. So I got a thermocouple/ thermometer, calibrated, and tested temperature at the portafilter. I found the PID to be about 16F above temp at the portafilter. So where my chart says 210, the portafilter is at 194. I do not think temperature is suspect.
I've been using the paperclip distribution method, on and off trying the stockfleth move, and my tamp seems to be pretty consistent. I also just got a distribution tool from amazon today (the last few recorded shots are with this). I've been watching for channeling (I've been using the naked portafilter) and on occasion, I get channeling, definitely on the quick pulls, but not on the "dialed in" shots. I have yet to check the pH/ hardness of my water, but online research tells me our water is soft, around 25ppm. For pressure, with a blind basket, I hit 10bar and with coffee, I sit right at 9bar.
Not quite sure what is going on, I am definitely new to this, been at it for just a week; I probably just need more practice. I used to use a cheap DeLonghi so I have "some" experience. However, I am starting to think I may just not know what espresso is supposed to "really taste like" (I know quite subjective), most of the time when I get coffee its a cappuccino. I do know that I am not the biggest fan of the light/ sharp fruity flavors that a lot of specialty shops in Portland are doing at the moment, hence why I have gone with chocolate, caramel roasts.
I apologize for the very lengthy post, I wanted to try and cover all the bases to avoid the back and forth Q&A diagnosis I see in many posts. Hopefully, this essay won't deter responses. I am doing a training session at Clive Coffee this weekend, maybe that will help address some issues, either way I am looking forward to it. Attached are a few images.
Thanks,
Arian
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happycat
- Posts: 1464
- Joined: 11 years ago
Note that your best rated shots all about 35s.
Definitely a problem with distribution of grinds for all the fast shots... fast will result in sour flavours.
Just grinding finer not necessarily answer... you can grind too fine and get channeling and it can taste somewhat balanced.
Definitely a problem with distribution of grinds for all the fast shots... fast will result in sour flavours.
Just grinding finer not necessarily answer... you can grind too fine and get channeling and it can taste somewhat balanced.
LMWDP #603
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Denis
- Posts: 365
- Joined: 6 years ago
Depending on what coffee roast grade you use, you might need to top up the temp.
It's not the same pid, but at his 228 F on pid he has 92-94 C water on the puck.
It's not the same pid, but at his 228 F on pid he has 92-94 C water on the puck.
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DeGaulle
- Posts: 545
- Joined: 10 years ago
Just my 2 cents:
Switch to the stock basket (presumably rated for 14 grams) or buy one similar and start at low to moderate doses (14-15 grams) and grind finer only if you have to, aiming for the same 25 seconds.
You might think 36 grams espresso out of 18 grams coffee would give you the same taste as 30 out of 15, but that isn't necessarily the case. Lowering the dose tends to mute acidity.
Switch to the stock basket (presumably rated for 14 grams) or buy one similar and start at low to moderate doses (14-15 grams) and grind finer only if you have to, aiming for the same 25 seconds.
You might think 36 grams espresso out of 18 grams coffee would give you the same taste as 30 out of 15, but that isn't necessarily the case. Lowering the dose tends to mute acidity.
Bert
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arian (original poster)
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 5 years ago
I was thinking maybe temperature still has something do with the acidity. When I had the PID set to 220 temps at the puck are at 204. Isn't that already technically too hot? I do remember not being not able to drink the espresso shortly after the pulls, even at 210.Denis wrote:Depending on what coffee roast grade you use, you might need to top up the temp.
It's not the same pid, but at his 228 F on pid he has 92-94 C water on the puck.
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arian (original poster)
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 5 years ago
I'll give this a shot, thanks!DeGaulle wrote:Just my 2 cents:
Switch to the stock basket (presumably rated for 14 grams) or buy one similar and start at low to moderate doses (14-15 grams) and grind finer only if you have to, aiming for the same 25 seconds.
You might think 36 grams espresso out of 18 grams coffee would give you the same taste as 30 out of 15, but that isn't necessarily the case. Lowering the dose tends to mute acidity.
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arian (original poster)
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 5 years ago
Hey David,happycat wrote:Note that your best rated shots all about 35s.
Definitely a problem with distribution of grinds for all the fast shots... fast will result in sour flavours.
Just grinding finer not necessarily answer... you can grind too fine and get channeling and it can taste somewhat balanced.
Thanks for the response. I know my technique is definitely not there yet, but I don't think my distribution is at fault. I definitely get channeling on the coarser grinds (shoots espresso like a geyser), but I rarely noticed it on the grinds that were finer. I may not be understanding the point you are trying to make. However, grinding too fine and having a somewhat balanced shot sounds like something I may be experiencing, I'm just still unsure about the channeling. I just had a lungo from a shop and even that was a too bright/ acidic for me, arent lungos supposed to be on the more bitter side of things? Starting to think my understanding of how espresso is supposed to taste is not there.
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Jake_G
- Team HB
- Posts: 4333
- Joined: 6 years ago
Arian,
When you grind coarser, less coffee fits in the puck before it hits the shower screen. What basket are you using, and do you have the flat shower screen mod, or do you still have the bolt sticking out?
In either case, prepare a puck l, lock into the group and then immediately remove the portafilter. If you have a bolt, you should have a light witness mark in the puck from it. If the bolt head is buried in the puck, your dose is too high for the basket you are using. Drop your dose accordingly until you pass this test.
If you have the flat screen upgrade, drop a nickel on the puck before locking it in and see if the nickel is pressed into the puck. Again, the correct headspace is where you have a witness mark, but the puck isn't disturbed by the nickel. Miss Silvia is very unforgiving of too much coffee in the basket. You need to be able to start the shot with a pristine puck. If it gets beat up by the shower screen before the water even hits it, you're in for a rough time. The stock "102" basket has a hard time with anything more than about 14.5g with a light roasted coffee ground finely (more dense beans, finer and more compacted puck) and I struggled to get much more than 13g in it with coarser ground beans that spent any time developing beyond first crack (medium, darker roasts but no oil on the beans which are less dense and when ground coarser make a less compact puck). If you have the 103 basket or a VST, you should be able to dose closer to 18g, but not necessarily when using medium/darker roasted beans.
As to water temp, if you are seeing 200 degrees or so with a thermocouple slipped into the basket on top of the puck while pulling a shot, you should be in good shape. That said, I'm not sure what your testing procedure actually entails.
Cheers!
- Jake
When you grind coarser, less coffee fits in the puck before it hits the shower screen. What basket are you using, and do you have the flat shower screen mod, or do you still have the bolt sticking out?
In either case, prepare a puck l, lock into the group and then immediately remove the portafilter. If you have a bolt, you should have a light witness mark in the puck from it. If the bolt head is buried in the puck, your dose is too high for the basket you are using. Drop your dose accordingly until you pass this test.
If you have the flat screen upgrade, drop a nickel on the puck before locking it in and see if the nickel is pressed into the puck. Again, the correct headspace is where you have a witness mark, but the puck isn't disturbed by the nickel. Miss Silvia is very unforgiving of too much coffee in the basket. You need to be able to start the shot with a pristine puck. If it gets beat up by the shower screen before the water even hits it, you're in for a rough time. The stock "102" basket has a hard time with anything more than about 14.5g with a light roasted coffee ground finely (more dense beans, finer and more compacted puck) and I struggled to get much more than 13g in it with coarser ground beans that spent any time developing beyond first crack (medium, darker roasts but no oil on the beans which are less dense and when ground coarser make a less compact puck). If you have the 103 basket or a VST, you should be able to dose closer to 18g, but not necessarily when using medium/darker roasted beans.
As to water temp, if you are seeing 200 degrees or so with a thermocouple slipped into the basket on top of the puck while pulling a shot, you should be in good shape. That said, I'm not sure what your testing procedure actually entails.
Cheers!
- Jake
LMWDP #704
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arian (original poster)
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 5 years ago
Hey Jake,
The shower screen mod appears done, no bolt sticking out. I have been using a VST basket, I believe its the 18g basket, I'll give the nickel test a shot today after work. When you say, "not necessarily when using medium/darker roasted beans," does this mean as roasts get darker I should decrease my dose? If so, should I get a smaller (15g VST basket) as earlier suggested and use a lower dose there? It is quite apparent that the 18g basket is not friendly with doses that are too small.
As far as water temp. I calibrated my thermocouple with iced water, found that it read 4F high (reads 36F at 32F). So I tested by placing the thermocouple on the top of the puck while pulling a shot. After a couple of tests at different PID settings (giving adequate time for temps to stabilize), I found that the PID setting was about 16 degrees above what is actually hitting the puck (e.g., PID set to 210F, puck sees 194F). Therefore, I am assuming temperature is not the root of my problems. Is that safe to assume?
Thanks
The shower screen mod appears done, no bolt sticking out. I have been using a VST basket, I believe its the 18g basket, I'll give the nickel test a shot today after work. When you say, "not necessarily when using medium/darker roasted beans," does this mean as roasts get darker I should decrease my dose? If so, should I get a smaller (15g VST basket) as earlier suggested and use a lower dose there? It is quite apparent that the 18g basket is not friendly with doses that are too small.
As far as water temp. I calibrated my thermocouple with iced water, found that it read 4F high (reads 36F at 32F). So I tested by placing the thermocouple on the top of the puck while pulling a shot. After a couple of tests at different PID settings (giving adequate time for temps to stabilize), I found that the PID setting was about 16 degrees above what is actually hitting the puck (e.g., PID set to 210F, puck sees 194F). Therefore, I am assuming temperature is not the root of my problems. Is that safe to assume?
Thanks
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Jake_G
- Team HB
- Posts: 4333
- Joined: 6 years ago
The flat shower screen is great. The smaller doses on darker roasts comment is not so much that you should use a smaller basket. If anything, a larger basket would be needed to maintain dose if you are at the limit of your basket/headspace with lighter roasts.
Here's the deal; by definition, more dense coffee beans take up less space than less dense coffee beans do, so already you are in a situation where the same volume of beans (say if you dosed by filling the basket level with the rim) will weigh more or less, depending on the bean density. Lighter roasted beans are more dense than darker roasted beans, so if you were to dose by volume, you would automatically have a lower dose of dark beans (less dense) than you would light roasted beans (more dense).
Since most folks recommend dosing instead by weight (I recommend this), the lower density beans will take up more space in the basket and leave you with less headspace than a lighter roasted bean if you are dosing both at the same weight.
This issue gets compounded by the fact that darker roasted beans tend to require a more coarse grind than lighter roasted beans to get the shot timing correct. Coarser ground coffee packs less tightly into the basket than finely ground coffee, so yet again you find yourself needing even less coffee in the basket if you are using coffee that is toasted on the darker side. If you are giving yourself what I call a SuperTamp by dosing enough that the puck comes into contact with the shower screen before you get the portafilter locked in, you will be plagued by chanelling and all other sorts of non-tasty issues. VST baskets are picky about the doses they will play nice with, so it's up to you to determine your headspace requirements and grind accordingly to find the sweet spot of dose and grind to give you good shot timing and make the VST basket happy.
From my experience with both Rancilio and La Marzocco groups, I can tell you that they have similar headspace and LM Strada baskets are rebadged VST baskets. I bring this up because LM calls the 18g VST basket the 17g Strada basket because the shower screen on the Strada (and GS/3, and Rancilio commercial groups *cough, cough* Silvia) take up a bit more of the available headspace than the more common E61 groups.
Long story short, grab a nickel!
Cheers!
- Jake
Here's the deal; by definition, more dense coffee beans take up less space than less dense coffee beans do, so already you are in a situation where the same volume of beans (say if you dosed by filling the basket level with the rim) will weigh more or less, depending on the bean density. Lighter roasted beans are more dense than darker roasted beans, so if you were to dose by volume, you would automatically have a lower dose of dark beans (less dense) than you would light roasted beans (more dense).
Since most folks recommend dosing instead by weight (I recommend this), the lower density beans will take up more space in the basket and leave you with less headspace than a lighter roasted bean if you are dosing both at the same weight.
This issue gets compounded by the fact that darker roasted beans tend to require a more coarse grind than lighter roasted beans to get the shot timing correct. Coarser ground coffee packs less tightly into the basket than finely ground coffee, so yet again you find yourself needing even less coffee in the basket if you are using coffee that is toasted on the darker side. If you are giving yourself what I call a SuperTamp by dosing enough that the puck comes into contact with the shower screen before you get the portafilter locked in, you will be plagued by chanelling and all other sorts of non-tasty issues. VST baskets are picky about the doses they will play nice with, so it's up to you to determine your headspace requirements and grind accordingly to find the sweet spot of dose and grind to give you good shot timing and make the VST basket happy.
From my experience with both Rancilio and La Marzocco groups, I can tell you that they have similar headspace and LM Strada baskets are rebadged VST baskets. I bring this up because LM calls the 18g VST basket the 17g Strada basket because the shower screen on the Strada (and GS/3, and Rancilio commercial groups *cough, cough* Silvia) take up a bit more of the available headspace than the more common E61 groups.
Long story short, grab a nickel!
Cheers!
- Jake
LMWDP #704
