Jake_G wrote:The flat shower screen is great. The smaller doses on darker roasts comment is not so much that you should use a smaller basket. If anything, a larger basket would be needed to maintain dose if you are at the limit of your basket/headspace with lighter roasts.

Here's the deal; by definition, more dense coffee beans take up less space than less dense coffee beans do, so already you are in a situation where the same volume of beans (say if you dosed by filling the basket level with the rim) will weigh more or less, depending on the bean density. Lighter roasted beans are more dense than darker roasted beans, so if you were to dose by volume, you would automatically have a lower dose of dark beans (less dense) than you would light roasted beans (more dense).

Since most folks recommend dosing instead by weight (I recommend this), the lower density beans will take up more space in the basket and leave you with less headspace than a lighter roasted bean if you are dosing both at the same weight.

This issue gets compounded by the fact that darker roasted beans tend to require a more coarse grind than lighter roasted beans to get the shot timing correct. Coarser ground coffee packs less tightly into the basket than finely ground coffee, so yet again you find yourself needing even less coffee in the basket if you are using coffee that is toasted on the darker side. If you are giving yourself what I call a SuperTamp by dosing enough that the puck comes into contact with the shower screen before you get the portafilter locked in, you will be plagued by chanelling and all other sorts of non-tasty issues. VST baskets are picky about the doses they will play nice with, so it's up to you to determine your headspace requirements and grind accordingly to find the sweet spot of dose and grind to give you good shot timing and make the VST basket happy.

From my experience with both Rancilio and La Marzocco groups, I can tell you that they have similar headspace and LM Strada baskets are rebadged VST baskets. I bring this up because LM calls the 18g VST basket the 17g Strada basket because the shower screen on the Strada (and GS/3, and Rancilio commercial groups *cough, cough* Silvia) take up a bit more of the available headspace than the more common E61 groups.

Long story short, grab a nickel!

Cheers!

- Jake

Thanks for the clarification, this has definitely helped my understanding of the concept. Glad to hear I don't need to buy more equipment. Did some research on the 15g VST basket after my previous post and that thing sounds quite difficult to work with.

I now believe that I may be under extracting. 18g may really be too large of a dose, therefore, if my understanding is correct, like a salami shot, the first couple of cups are the most sour, I am not getting to the last few cups, getting a full extraction, even though my yields appear to be correct.

A quick clarification question. A couple of times I have gotten pucks that ended up all over the place in the portafilter and on the shower screen, even after solid tamping. This is due to doses that are too small for that basket, and this would be a reason to move to a smaller basket, right?

arian wrote: A quick clarification question. A couple of times I have gotten pucks that ended up all over the place in the portafilter and on the shower screen, even after solid tamping. This is due to doses that are too small for that basket, and this would be a reason to move to a smaller basket, right?

I wouldn't draw that conclusion.

An underdosed basket can leave some wet slurry atop your puck, but I've not seen any particular mess associated with it. I know I'm just barely underdosed when my puck sticks to the shower screen and pulls out of the basket.

Get a nickel, check your headspace.

When in doubt, grind finer and dose less for a sweeter shot.

Cheers!

- Jake

You're experiencing something I had when I owned a Crossland CC1 & Sette270Wi. I was pulling sour shots that I was not fond of and always would put it in milk and that would be enjoyable to drink. I was keeping a journal like you as well, detailing everything.

The funny thing is, I never did try a straight espresso shot from a good cafe yet in my life. I thought I knew what I was doing and what I was tasting was supposed to be espresso.

My first "real" espresso I had at a cafe shocked me. It was nothing that I was doing at home and realized that I really had no idea of what espresso should taste like. Kind of what you described. I didn't really like it even that much.

I tried either 5 or 6 local coffee shops, trying to find something that I enjoy as an espresso. First times it's not that it was bad but it was a very intense experience but it was nice nevertheless.

I'd try it in the shop and then buy a bag home and was kind of disappointed with the results. I did not like sour/acidic espresso and wanted something that was dark and chocolatey with no acidity. I finally found something that I enjoyed drinking as an occasional shot and was a pleasure in milk as well. What worked for me in that particular blend was 18.5g in 18.5g out (Ristretto) at 200°F, 6-8 second preinfusion and a 35-40second shot.

Here's the kicker for me. Even though, I tried very hard to find what would be the best (I bought a 5lb bag) only 2-3 times I got a shot that was super close to what the Cafe was making. Even though the espresso was good, I was not happy enough with just good knowing that this could taste better. I shortly after got into brewing SO pour-overs and enjoyed that so much more than espresso that I sold that setup.

I recently came full circle and I love light roasted SO espresso that is acidic/fruity whatever you want to call it. AND I am happy with it because I have a machine capable of pulling those shots along with a competent grinder to make that cafe quality shots. It's the same as the cafe at least to my palate and I was not able to achieve that through an entry single boiler machine like the CC1/Gaggia/Rancilio.

That's my experience. So my recommendation is finding an espresso you like in a shop that suits your palate and try to mimic their variables as close as possible on your machine and just go by taste. Don't be afraid of pulling longer shots. Don't be confined to the 25-30 second shot. Those are just guidelines.

Hey Jev,

It looks like you went through exactly what I am experiencing now. I'm glad to hear that you've come full circle with a complete experience that you can appreciate; refreshing to hear. I've tried a few espressos the last couple of days and have been surprised that realistically none of my shots are that far off. Most shops these days seem to be brewing on the lighter side of things, closer to what I've been pulling. I do prefer the dark, chocolatey shots with no acidity as you described though. I've received some great advice here, and I think you are right as far as pulling longer shots.

Are there any specifics you may be able to share on what enabled you to pull better shots with a more advanced machine?

I imagine you now have the experience/ understanding to now consciously adjust variables towards the shots that you prefer. However, I recently came across this video from barista hustle and it has been a great guide, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BT7-yOUMDM, worth a watch if you have not seen it already. If anyone comes across this topic trying to dial in their shots, this is a great video to watch.

Thanks for the help,
Arian

arian wrote:Hey Jev,

It looks like you went through exactly what I am experiencing now. I'm glad to hear that you've come full circle with a complete experience that you can appreciate; refreshing to hear. I've tried a few espressos the last couple of days and have been surprised that realistically none of my shots are that far off. Most shops these days seem to be brewing on the lighter side of things, closer to what I've been pulling. I do prefer the dark, chocolatey shots with no acidity as you described though. I've received some great advice here, and I think you are right as far as pulling longer shots.

Are there any specifics you may be able to share on what enabled you to pull better shots with a more advanced machine?

I imagine you now have the experience/ understanding to now consciously adjust variables towards the shots that you prefer. However, I recently came across this video from barista hustle and it has been a great guide, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BT7-yOUMDM, worth a watch if you have not seen it already. If anyone comes across this topic trying to dial in their shots, this is a great video to watch.

Thanks for the help,
Arian

That's great to hear. Espresso is really great. I think Jim here posted in another thread that now modern espresso is like a perfectly brewed cup of filter coffee but 10x the strength. Which sipping on my espresso this morning is exactly what it was.

I think that now since I have a Forté with flat burrs that allows for a different flavor profile of espresso which generally is favored by light roasts. That improved the taste a lot. The Sette270 is not a bad grinder but it is a limiting factor when you go with lighter roasts. My friend with a Pavoni replaced his Sette with a Bplus Apollo hand grinder and said the quality of shots was much better with his SO light roast espressos.

I have a modded BDB which allows for a very long gentle pre-infusion, essentially mimicking a shot done by the Slayer machines. There's a thread over in the Espresso Machine subforum. Also, I have the Cafelat Robot with is a manual lever machine and levers are pretty awesome for all types of espresso extractions.

That video is great! I watched it three times already.