Im new to this too and I always hear/read to consume the espresso shot right away. From my experience they taste better after they cool down for couple of mins. Am I missing something?

tennisman03110 wrote:One of my issues is what is "dryness" and astringency in coffee. What are everyday foods (non-foods?!) that exhibit these characteristics?

From most drying to least (based on my memory,) here are some commonly available things you can train on astringency with:

underripe persimmon
severely underripe banana, particularly the flower end
aspirin
grape skins
pomegranate
slightly underripe banana

If you train in order you can learn to detect astringency fairly easily. Aside from aspirin they're not particularly bitter, which is even better for training.

tennisman03110 wrote:Thanks for the chart and answer. One of my issues is what is "dryness" and astringency in coffee. What are everyday foods (non-foods?!) that exhibit these characteristics?

I've always heard grind finer until there's no flow, then just slightly increase grind size. But part of me wonders if I'm only making things worse by moving finer. Four shots so far and each one has been a finer grind, same 2:1 ratio, all taste slightly different, not better or worse (see, I'm bad).

wines will typically have this dryness characteristic or a fruit that would have it would be something like a cherry, often unripe fruits have it as well. there is a noticeable dry mouthfeel and although for wines this can be desired it's not for coffee. Often people describe this as bitter but bitter can be a little ambiguous, does it mean over-extracted or does it mean too strong? You might be able to force it to be more astringent by pulling a longer shot which will extracted it more. if you pull a 45-second shot how does it taste? if you taste a dryness in the mouth then you know what astringency is if you don't it doesn't mean you missed it the shot may not be astringent. Conversely, if you pull a 15-second shot how does it taste? these might force some bad qualities by deliberately pulling a bad shot then you can help train yourself what is under-extracted (sour) what is over-extracted (astringent). If you have friends with espresso machine you can try shots from them, or try shots from cafes to see what the difference is. Cafe shots also are not always good because espressos are not always a common drink so don't expect perfect examples from them, the other day I had a shot that tasted exactly like chewing on an orange rind and I would describe this as too acidic which would be under-extracted.

tennisman03110 wrote:Hmm....I never thought of the too fresh thing. It has been 6 days off roast now.

I would say it does have quite a bit of crema, especially to start. I've never had this coffee before.

Tomorrow morning I will take a video and see if I can't post it.

too fresh of coffee can create a back pressure with the shot. basically you have a pressurized environment that is pushing downward but if there is too much CO2 then that CO2 will want to escape and create an upward pressure. The downward pressure should win in the end (having an effect of more crema if there's a lot of CO2) and the shot time will be longer which then may cause you to make other changes like going coarser to keep a 2:1 yield or a 25s-30s shot time and this may have a negative effect on the extraction. You can degass coffee yourself simply by grinding and letting it sit for a while and the coffee will naturally release CO2 the longer it sits because it's volatile. if it's super fresh you can let it sit for an hour, but for 1 week old you might want to play with it like 20 min or a half hour.

Or you can continue to use the coffee as is and note the changes as it ages. Try and keep a logbook (there are lots of apps for this as well) and note every change you make plus your thoughts on the shot. For example if you go finer note the change and your perception of what it did to the shot. If you don't notice anything different then mark that, if you feel like you're guessing put your guess down with a question mark so you know if you look over it again that it was a guess.

the logbook will help you learn and fine-tune your abilities of tasting and also eliminates some guesswork because if you get lost you can always go back to Tuesday's shot and if the coffee has less C02 the shot might be a little quicker than Tuesdays shot, simply note it and perhaps put in a note why you think it might be different and your perception of the shot. You can also note the crema amount or other characteristics. This type of record-keeping engages a different part of our brain and helps with your ability to recall these shots in memory rather than just guessing every shot (with apps you can take pictures of the shots). overtime you will be able to draw from a library of many shots in your head and just by looking at the shot you will know if it's sour.

I can taste the slightest amount of astringency and it was from making some really bad coffee and always searching for the better one. IMO the perfect shot is an adjustment away and you are always chasing it.

I have the same issue. One thing I started doing when I get a new bag of b beans is I split the first shot into 5 second sections i.e. using 5 to 6 cups. Then I taste them individually as well as by progressively mixing them. This shows me what this coffee is supposed to taste when underextracted.

So tasting today seemed....still acidic, I think. Don't really get an astringent or dryness.

See video. The first drop at 11 seconds on my timer.
Total time about 30 seconds for 40g out. 18g double.

Does it appear too fresh? Also two images, one right after brewing, another one minute after. Big crema loss.

The best way to develop your espresso palate is to taste a lot of different espresso with people who have developed palates.

Seriously.

It may be worthwhile to grind finer and go for a longer shot (in seconds), as it looks like your machine is doing some preinfusion (meaning shot times won't line up as well with classic machines that don't have as long of a preinfuse). The fact that it is too acidic with no astringency supports this, as you should have room to extract more without negative effects.

tennisman03110 wrote:Thanks for the chart and answer. One of my issues is what is "dryness" and astringency in coffee. What are everyday foods (non-foods?!) that exhibit these characteristics?

I've always heard grind finer until there's no flow, then just slightly increase grind size. But part of me wonders if I'm only making things worse by moving finer. Four shots so far and each one has been a finer grind, same 2:1 ratio, all taste slightly different, not better or worse (see, I'm bad).

Sam mentioned (in passing) channeling. I think we must stress puck preparation before we start talking about flavors and acidity. Can you share how you evenly distribute the grounds in the basket and how you tamp? I wonder if we can learn anything about the difficulty you have tasting "clarity" from errors in puck prep? If channeling is occurring, or if the water temperature is too low/high (have you checked this?), tasting the espresso will be misleading. Just a thought.

tennisman03110 wrote:Hello All,

I'm still new in my home espresso adventures. I have a Breville Duo Temp and Baratza 270, but use it off and on. V60 is my usual.

On this forum I see how to adjust espresso depending on taste. But how do you learn to taste espresso? I can tell if I like something, but just can't seem to understand the subtle differences of acidic, sour, slightly bitter, etc.

Sure, lemon juice is sour. 100% chocolate is bitter. Sugar is sweet, etc. But espresso.....I don't know how to learn.

Currently, I am using a freshly roasted (May 26th) bag of Blue Bottle Dandy Espresso. I brew 18g double about 36g out, total time about 30 seconds (12 seconds to first drop). It pours fast once it starts, not slow/thin/viscous like I see in videos. Freshly cleaned machine.

I'm down to a 4G setting on the 270. I'm making it finer each time. I will take a video next time I brew.

To the point, I don't love it. I think it's sour/acidic, but maybe it's bitter? Does have nice crema. I really can't tell. The last bag of coffee I went through, which was a month ago, was BW Classic which I liked more.

Any tips? Online videos to watch? Or anything you see in the process to improve.

Thanks

I prefer to talk about acidity in terms of pH. Here is a useful (for me!) guide to acidity in coffees: https://perfectdailygrind.com/2015/11/c ... s-acidity/

Scroll down to find a scale (image below) that helps match coffee taste bud experience with fruit taste bud experience (according to pH).