Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation! - Page 3

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
User avatar
AndyS

#21: Post by AndyS »

Ken Fox wrote:Our peculiar N. American practices have led directly to the impression that making espresso at home is hard to do, and it is probably "our fault." I think that if people took a step back and looked at how they do it in Italy (with smaller doses) they might realize that the Italians actually have had a lot of experience with this skill, espressomaking, and they arrived at the smaller doses perhaps after a lot of trial and error
Certainly, Ken, you've been to the coffee shows where authentic Italian exhibitors (see picture) pull decent shots without the extensive "grooming" and tamping rituals that many American baristas find essential. I used to find the simplicity of the Italian technique perplexing, but apparently, they're just dosing a lot lower.




THE FAMOUS ANGELO MINICOZZI, "AUTHENTIC ITALIAN EXHIBITOR"
-AndyS
VST refractometer/filter basket beta tester, no financial interest in the company

User avatar
another_jim
Team HB

#22: Post by another_jim »

AndyS wrote:I used to find the simplicity of the Italian technique perplexing, but apparently, they're just dosing a lot lower.
I'm still trying to reproduce that pancake flip like motion the NS guy used instead of distributing and tamping.
Jim Schulman

User avatar
another_jim
Team HB

#23: Post by another_jim »

Ken Fox wrote:We all owe Jim Schulman a huge measure of thanks because he is basically the pioneer with this stuff, and his motivation in working on it was directly related to his enjoyment of Single Origin espresso and related attempts to expand the number of such SOs that would be usable for espresso.
I was just the megaphone on this. I think the first person to post on low doses was Peter Lynagh of Terroir, a year before I started doing it. He was scratching his head why people found the Terroir Daterra too bright, and it came out that the roast was designed for 14 grams doses, while everyone was doing it at 18. I've dropped my roast finishing temperatures for espresso from a steady 2nd crack 440F to 445F down to a no hint of the second crack 430F to 435F since I started down dosing.

Basically, the latest generation of top roasters, like Terroir, Paradise and Rocket, come from non-Seattle, non-espresso-centric backgrounds, and their espresso roasts tend to be designed for Italian and Latin technique. Their success has made people more receptive to lower doses.

The irony of my role in this is that my solids extraction theory on why lower doses are more palatable is not holding up. Down dosing does work with all the TGP grinders for making lighter, acidic roasts palatable, but the solids extraction is not rising much, or at all.
Jim Schulman

Ken Fox (original poster)

#24: Post by Ken Fox (original poster) »

another_jim wrote:I'm still trying to reproduce that pancake flip like motion the NS guy used instead of distributing and tamping.
I continue to be amazed by the pours I'm getting, with lower bean dosage and no hoohah whatsoever. I'm just spooning the ground coffee in 2 or 3 spoonfuls from the ramekin into the PF, then doing a fast half-assed tamp, then voila! Perfect and repeatable pours that start to show through the bottomless PF in 6 or 7 seconds, and that start blonding like clockwork after 1.25oz at around 27-30 seconds.

The other thing that is most amazing is that I've not been adjusting my grinders; granted, they are either hybrid conical/planar (Maxs) or straight conical (Compak) but there is something about the dosing that is playing a role as well. The grind setting appears to be much less critical and require hardly any fiddling. I have not touched the grind on the Compak even though I set it up for Brazil Yellow Bourbon and now have Biloya in it, both of which have been great at 14g doses; this is over SIX DAYS.

I had to adjust one Max a little when I went from 14g Biloya Single Origin to some previously frozen Rocket Roaster Classic 4 days later, that I think maybe needs 15g doses rather than 14g. The other Max had Klatch Barista Champion blend in it, which was ok at 14g but seemed better at 15g so I adjusted that. But I have yet to adjust any of these grinders on a day to day basis to account for aging of the coffee or humidity changes, as it has not been necessary, not once in a week.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

User avatar
AndyS

#25: Post by AndyS »

Ken Fox wrote:I continue to be amazed by the pours I'm getting, with lower bean dosage and no hoohah whatsoever. I'm just spooning the ground coffee in 2 or 3 spoonfuls from the ramekin into the PF, then doing a fast half-assed tamp, then voila! Perfect and repeatable pours
What brand of ramekin? What is its diameter?

Teaspoon or tablespoon?

Whatever you do, don't change your socks, that'll ruin the whole thing.
-AndyS
VST refractometer/filter basket beta tester, no financial interest in the company

User avatar
RapidCoffee
Team HB

#26: Post by RapidCoffee »

another_jim wrote:The irony of my role in this is that my solids extraction theory on why lower doses are more palatable is not holding up. Down dosing does work with all the TGP grinders for making lighter, acidic roasts palatable, but the solids extraction is not rising much, or at all.
Perhaps what is being extracted has a more profound influence on taste than how much is being extracted.
another_jim wrote:I'm beginning to think so -- you wouldn't happen to have an MS/CG for rent among all your goodies?
I can check. :roll:
John

Ken Fox (original poster)

#27: Post by Ken Fox (original poster) »

AndyS wrote:What brand of ramekin? What is its diameter?

Teaspoon or tablespoon?

Whatever you do, don't change your socks, that'll ruin the whole thing.
The one I prefer was made by Revol. a French company, although I have used Chinese ones also. The diameter of the Revol is 9cm.

Teaspoon.

No socks this time of year except for hiking, otherwise, sandals.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

User avatar
Psyd

#28: Post by Psyd »

The other side of the coin.

I've been working through a bit of a slump, lately, with donuts and spritzes out of the same basket. When I saw this thread, and the advice on the thread I started about my problems, it seemed to make so much sense.
Unfortunately, in both the pulls from my Argenta professional machine and from my Silvia. My downdosed, finer grind shots seen to be losing crema, darker, and more bitter. I'm not done yet, but it does seem as if I'm not getting the same results as some of the other posters are experiencing.
Espresso Sniper
One Shot, One Kill

LMWDP #175

JonS

#29: Post by JonS »

Psyd wrote:The other side of the coin.

I've been working through a bit of a slump, lately, with donuts and spritzes out of the same basket. When I saw this thread, and the advice on the thread I started about my problems, it seemed to make so much sense.
Unfortunately, in both the pulls from my Argenta professional machine and from my Silvia. My downdosed, finer grind shots seen to be losing crema, darker, and more bitter. I'm not done yet, but it does seem as if I'm not getting the same results as some of the other posters are experiencing.
Just a thought, but, depending on how large doses you were using previously, is it not possible that the much thinner puck of coffee is being heated to a greater extent by the brew water passing through it, than a thicker puck would be ? Might this explain darker, more bitter pours ? Have you tried a slightly lower temperature ?

I have to say, I've been an interested follower of Jim's posts and articles about smaller doses, but I'd never really managed to put it into practise successfully. My pucks were just falling apart and channeling the last time I tried. Reading Ken's take on it, I can see my main error was probably aiming for too large a pour from a greatly reduced dose, and hence grinding too coarse. Definitely, I remember seeing an avalanche effect where things went really badly wrong as the grind reached a certain level of coarseness.

Fast-forward to today, and I've tried this again, scales, ramekin, teaspoon and all. I've had only limited success recently with Finca La Fany Bourbon, despite reading really positive comments on it. Trying a 14g dose seemed to really balance things out, and I got a much smoother cup, with far more of the flavours I'd expected from the cupping notes. The puck seemed far more evenly saturated, and the pour held together nicely.

I'll be trying this a lot more in the near future, even if I am somewhat disappointed that, having banished much of the ritual from my espresso-making routine, I now have to involve a ramekin and a teaspoon, and dust off my scales :wink:

User avatar
Jasonian

#30: Post by Jasonian »

Psyd wrote:The other side of the coin.

I've been working through a bit of a slump, lately, with donuts and spritzes out of the same basket. When I saw this thread, and the advice on the thread I started about my problems, it seemed to make so much sense.
Unfortunately, in both the pulls from my Argenta professional machine and from my Silvia. My downdosed, finer grind shots seen to be losing crema, darker, and more bitter. I'm not done yet, but it does seem as if I'm not getting the same results as some of the other posters are experiencing.
From my experiences, not every coffee's essence is best expressed in its entirety.

In other words, some coffees just don't work as well with a lighter dose. Past crop green especially can be an issue, not to mention just plain stale coffee.
Owner - AJ Coffee Company
HB Rocks!