Basket Overdosing: Are triple baskets taboo?

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TimEggers

#1: Post by TimEggers »

...split from Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation! by moderator...


Mr. Fox (or anyone else) how does this discussion pertain to triple baskets? I can see the point of a machine perhaps not being designed for 20g of coffee in a double basket, but how do triples pertain to this notion? Granted if a coffee is best at a 15g double, I doubt a 20g triple will be any better (as you note Mr. Fox). Tastes aside are triples taboo in regards to machine design/capability?
Tim Eggers
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Mark08859

#2: Post by Mark08859 »

Perhaps, just perhaps, it depends on the history of the triple basket. Is this a uniquely American phenomenom due to our penchant for updosing? Or, do triple baskets see frequent use everywhere?

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Psyd

#3: Post by Psyd »

I think we can take a page from one of the oldest religions on the planet, "If it harms not another, do what you will".

Updosing and downdosing, singles and triples, it's all just a trade off of convenience vs taste. If I can't taste the difference between an updosed double and a double ground finer and downdosed, I'm just gonna go for what makes a flat basket as it's easier. I prefer a triple made in one basket to making a double and making a single, or making three singles, even if I think that the three single triple tastes better, I may use the triple because it's just easier.
It's like I teach in sword fighting. These are the techniques I use. They keep me 'alive'. You've been taught other things by other people, but who am I to say that they're wrong. If I do, you have no idea who to trust, because you are new. If I say, however, now you have two techniques to choose from, see what you like best, they are a more well-rounded fighter.
My techniques tend to be more defensive in the kill but a bit slower. Other techniques tend to be a bit faster on the kill, but tend to leave the fighter a bit more exposed during the reposte.
How do you like your coffee?
Espresso Sniper
One Shot, One Kill

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Ken Fox

#4: Post by Ken Fox »

TimEggers wrote:...split from Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation! by moderator...


Mr. Fox (or anyone else) how does this discussion pertain to triple baskets? I can see the point of a machine perhaps not being designed for 20g of coffee in a double basket, but how do triples pertain to this notion? Granted if a coffee is best at a 15g double, I doubt a 20g triple will be any better (as you note Mr. Fox). Tastes aside are triples taboo in regards to machine design/capability?
There are two issues here, Mr. Tim :P

The first issue has to do with the fact that some machines have trouble when operated without enough "headspace," e.g. when the ground coffee directly touches the group screen and in some cases this results in channeling or other gross extraction problems. In a case such as that, if you put the same amount of coffee into a larger basket, you might well avoid these specific, machine-specific problems since the ground coffee is no longer in contact with the group screen itself.

The second issue has to do with the quality of the extraction itself, assuming that this occurs without problems that might be machine dependent. Changing the amount of coffee put into the PF basket but running the same amount of pressurized water through it per given period of time, will change the extraction. The coffee will of course have to be ground finer if less is put into the basket and the same volume/time parameters are to be achieved. Different things will be extracted from a larger amount of coffee ground coarser, than will be extracted from a smaller amount ground finer.

There may be other things going on in particular instances having to do with the flow of the water through the PF and the coffee in it, that are changed by the geometry of the basket. I am not smart enough to figure out this sort of stuff, so you'll have to ask a whiz, someone who actually read his college physics textbook like Andy S. about that sort of thing. I just memorized enough of that physics stuff to give the appearance that I sorta understood it, but I really didn't.

As regards to the first issue, it is a matter of simple mechanics and not really the major point of what I have been addressing in my dosing posts. As to the 2nd issue, my expectation would be that by putting 18 or 20g into a triple basket, you are still going to get a sort of extraction that you will not get with a 14g dose, and these results are probably not going to be very much effected by the change in basket size.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

Ken Fox

#5: Post by Ken Fox »

yes :P
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

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Compass Coffee
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#6: Post by Compass Coffee »

Ken Fox wrote:The second issue has to do with the quality of the extraction itself, assuming that this occurs without problems that might be machine dependent. Changing the amount of coffee put into the PF basket but running the same amount of pressurized water through it per given period of time, will change the extraction. The coffee will of course have to be ground finer if less is put into the basket and the same volume/time parameters are to be achieved. Different things will be extracted from a larger amount of coffee ground coarser, than will be extracted from a smaller amount ground finer.

There may be other things going on in particular instances having to do with the flow of the water through the PF and the coffee in it, that are changed by the geometry of the basket. I am not smart enough to figure out this sort of stuff, so you'll have to ask a whiz, someone who actually read his college physics textbook like Andy S. about that sort of thing. I just memorized enough of that physics stuff to give the appearance that I sorta understood it, but I really didn't.
ken
Seems an assumption if changing dose then water volume and shot time must remain the same. Why? Could be a reason in competitions shots can range from 20 to 30 seconds and be perfectly acceptable. With the caveat whatever shot timing the barista determines is the best for their given blend, basket, dose, machine, temp shot times must be consistent.

I happen to like my Ohana blend pulled with a LM double ridged with my Bricoletta. However, I could not get Ohana to sing on the Linea with the LM double basket. On the (PID'd) Linea it sings quite beautifully using the Synesso 18g sloped "light" triple basket, dosed ~18.5gr, lowly Major ground (with grind timer), target pull 27sec, 2.75 total volume including crema. More than 2sec +- variation on the pull and I toss 'em.
Mike McGinness, Head Bean (Owner/Roast Master)
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NebuK

#7: Post by NebuK »

Hi,

when i picked up my machine (2 grp 12L Faema STAR) here in germany i picked it froma italian guy running a kinda strange business of importing old machines from italy and restoring them just to sell them here on german ebay.

Anyways, he showed me what the italians use triple baskets for: Triple drips. Ever wondered why 2-4 (exact is not know) 6! Grouped E61 were built? Heck, at highway-caffees in italy it must be hell to pull espressi in rush-hour. Thats what triples are for :P

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malachi

#8: Post by malachi »

Triple baskets are very useful for downdosing experiments.
"Taste is the only morality." -- John Ruskin