Hello,
I have been reading over old threads about dialing in espresso since I feel like I am lost again. I watched a Matt Perger vid on locking in variables in the order of Dose, Yield, Time.

If I know the roaster of my bean is suggesting 50% yield and I am using a 15g VST basket, am I correct in assuming that the first two variables are then locked in (ie 15 g dry to 30 grams wet) ? What I had been doing was playing with the grind to try and make the 15 grams give 30 grams in approx 30 seconds, which was the time also suggested by the roaster in the brew parameters (49th parallel). This method is not working in the least, and I realized it's because I wasn't paying any attention to blonding point.

My brewhead thermometer reads 205 at the start of the shot (following cycling the boiler). Pressure at the gauge reading 9 bar against blind basket, so I'm assuming 8.5 during shot. I am also assuming that this gauge is trustworthy, as I don't have a modified portafilter to check, especially not one with the flow valve. My distributions seem good at this point, thanks to this forum. I'm using WDT and finally have no deadspots, donut, or spritzers.

My question is, if I am fixed at 15g in and 30g out, in theory, how do I move the blonding point to get it within 25-30 seconds territory? Can this be done by only changing grind? Obviously, all variables suggested by the roaster are just a starting point to be tweaked later. But my shots are all over the place in taste, but the weight vs time is consistent.

Thanks for continued help.
Mike

Yes, vary the grind to move the blonding point.

That said, you don't have to be a slave to the recommended 30 seconds. The best combination of 30g and the blonding point might occur anywhere from 25-35 seconds.

I would start by varying the grind to get 30g and the blonding point to coincide at 30 seconds, and if you don't like the taste try setting the grind for the shot to complete in 25 seconds. If you don't like that, try shooting for 35 seconds.

Some additional points:

1. You said your shots are all over the place. If you're not changing the grind, dose, target weight or time, and the shots vary, then your grinder may not be giving consistent results. This can happen if you use a hopper and the bean level gets low enough that there's not enough weight on the beans feeding into the burrs. This will generally result in a coarser grind. So when the hopper is full the shots run slower and when the hopper is nearly empty they run fast. Keep at least a couple of inches of beans in the hopper. Another cause of inconsistency is stale beans.

2. Make sure you understand where the blonding point is. If your shots taste sour, you're cutting them too early. If your shots taste bitter, you're letting them run too long. With today's light roasts, the more common error is to cut the shot too short. I find it best to let the shot run until the stream is virtually colorless. If it's bitter, cut it a little earlier on the next shot.

3. As you say, the roaster's recommendations are only a starting point. Bear in mind that the roaster is probably using a different grinder and machine.

Hi working to a set time , a set BR and blonding is making life very hard for yourself ....
I would work to a brew ratio ( note time of the shot but don't be a slave to it ) . Taste and adjust ( finer and coarser ) based on what you find in the cup
I really don't pay too much attention to blonding and when it happens but that is me .....

mikesnow wrote:Hello,
I have been reading over old threads about dialing in espresso since I feel like I am lost again. I watched a Matt Perger vid on locking in variables in the order of Dose, Yield, Time.

If I know the roaster of my bean is suggesting 50% yield and I am using a 15g VST basket, am I correct in assuming that the first two variables are then locked in (ie 15 g dry to 30 grams wet) ? What I had been doing was playing with the grind to try and make the 15 grams give 30 grams in approx 30 seconds, which was the time also suggested by the roaster in the brew parameters (49th parallel). This method is not working in the least, and I realized it's because I wasn't paying any attention to blonding point.

My brewhead thermometer reads 205 at the start of the shot (following cycling the boiler). Pressure at the gauge reading 9 bar against blind basket, so I'm assuming 8.5 during shot. I am also assuming that this gauge is trustworthy, as I don't have a modified portafilter to check, especially not one with the flow valve. My distributions seem good at this point, thanks to this forum. I'm using WDT and finally have no deadspots, donut, or spritzers.

My question is, if I am fixed at 15g in and 30g out, in theory, how do I move the blonding point to get it within 25-30 seconds territory? Can this be done by only changing grind? Obviously, all variables suggested by the roaster are just a starting point to be tweaked later. But my shots are all over the place in taste, but the weight vs time is consistent.

Thanks for continued help.
Mike

Which 49th bean are you pulling? Keep in mind 49th is now recommending 7 bar for some of their espresso roasts. Couple the lower pressure recommendation, with the likelihood that 49th is using high end equipment in their roasting labs to refine their roasts, means their beans are probably less forgiving to a point where the margin for error is small when pulling espresso. Any barista/puck preparation errors with prosumer equipment at home are going to be amplified.

I wouldn't worry about blonding point per se.
Just tweak the temp, dose, output, grind until you get consistency and a taste you like.

Very early blonding is obviously a sign of a poor extraction. But there are a number of factors that contribute to early blonding. So just focus on good prep and tweaks to achieve a good extraction to your liking. I wouldn't be a slave to blonding. If all the essential variables are right, you will be ok.

Mrboots2u wrote:Hi working to a set time , a set BR and blonding is making life very hard for yourself ....
I would work to a brew ratio ( note time of the shot but don't be a slave to it ) . Taste and adjust ( finer and coarser ) based on what you find in the cup
I really don't pay too much attention to blonding and when it happens but that is me .....

+1, other than premature blonding due to poor prep, I gave up on blonding as a shot indicator a long time ago in favor of brew ratio, and haven't looked back. Taste is king after all.

Thanks so far.

Peppersass some great points in there. I will be testing it out today.

I was only loading about 15g of beans into the grinder at a time. So today I tried filling the hopper to see if it made much difference.

I'm pulling the "Old School" from 49th. Will try out some of the stuff you were mentioning. When I saw 7 bar I thought it might be too low for an Alexia....think it's worth dialing down?

Still find it hard to see the cone collapsing. I still find it hard to understand how blond point and yield can be separate variables on the timeline because they are both affected by the grind...
Mike

Edit: I lowered it down to 7.5 without the OPV weeping water (8 at gauge). Not sure I can go much lower.
Also, my pump seems to be getting louder and louder, I'm wondering if it's on it's way out...
And for some reason with the hopper full grinder kept clogging today! Not a good day.

I'm not big on obsessing over the "blonding point". In fact, I don't see it as a "point" at all. James Hoffman, who is more knowledgeable and experienced than most of us will ever be, says this in his "dialing-in" blog post: http://www.jimseven.com/2010/09/20/dial ... t-timings/:

"Blonding" has long been problematic for me. Aside from the massive potential for subjectivity (which isn't hugely useful when it comes to communicating), blonding is the result of the flow containing less solubles than before - but offers no clue as to the quality and flavour of those solubles.

-Peter

Thanks Peter, I've been trying to do it by taste moreso, but it's tough.

I still don't believe there is a big enough resource on here for anyone that is interested in learning blonding point. There are only a few labelled videos to reference when discussing the point visually. To be honest I find it extremely difficult still even after watching Dan's video many times.

Thanks for posting the link.

Okay I see what you mean:

Quote from article:
"Aside from the massive potential for subjectivity (which isn't hugely useful when it comes to communicating), blonding is the result of the flow containing less solubles than before - but offers no clue as to the quality and flavour of those solubles."

Interesting...

jfrescki wrote:+1, other than premature blonding due to poor prep, I gave up on blonding as a shot indicator a long time ago in favor of brew ratio, and haven't looked back. Taste is king after all.

I gave up on blonding point in favor of brew ratio, too, but after a long period of struggling with sour shots, I read a post from Jim Schulman indicating that he lets shots of light roasted beans run until the stream is nearly clear. I tried that and, lo and behold, my shots weren't sour anymore.

I should point out that I was mindlessly pulling all my shots Ristretto, having decided early in my espresso journey that I like more concentrated shots. But many of today's very light roasts simply can't be pulled with a high brew ratio. It was a revelation to pull these coffees Normale or Lungo. And that's where you start seeing a very distinct difference in the color of the stream.

Bottom line, I pay a lot more attention to the stream color now.

That said, I agree that the "blonding" point is subjective and hard to define, and it's not a given that the solubles being extracted when the stream gets light are desirable. In fact, back when typical commercial espresso roasts were darker, letting the stream run blond for too long produced a bitter cup. There was no doubt that the solubles being extracted at that point weren't desirable. But with light roasts I've found that you can let the stream get very light without any hint of bitterness. I think these light roasts are so hard to extract that you never get to the bitter compounds we used to get with darker roasts.