30s extraction time from when?

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NewCoffeeGuy1
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#1: Post by NewCoffeeGuy1 »

I know that at the end of the day it's just a general rule of thumb and point of reference for e.g. 1:2 ratio, 18g in -> 36g out double shots or the like.

But I'm curious what most people actually experience in this regard? Is it from pump on? From first droplets?

Related aside and one reason I ask: I've had weirdly delicious shots where the total adds to 30s and comprises:
-pump on
-5s waiting until first droplets
-25s later there's 36g in the cup

But I've also had weirdly delicious shots go:
-pump on
-5/6/7/8s waiting for first droplets
-30s later there's 36g in the cup

Same beans. Subtly different grind.

Is either "correct?" Does it not matter if they're both delicious? Is it because I have a very forgiving machine?

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cafeIKE
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#2: Post by cafeIKE »

From the first drop as the infusion time can vary depending on the coffee, dose, grind and pressure.

Extraction also varies on the same variables, so it comes down to preference.

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Jeff
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#3: Post by Jeff »

Matter? Nope. Time is an output, something that you can measure to compare to your own water, coffee, gear, and preferences. If your own "benchmark" is 30 seconds from pump on, that is your personal reference point.

Some shots I chose to pull in under 15 seconds from pump on. Sometimes I'm completely off on grind and I've had tasty shots at over 60 seconds to get to a 1:1 ratio.

I choose "pump on" as "first drops" is dose, grind, and coffee dependent, even with a consistent extraction profile. Getting into extended soak or extraction profiling later in the shot, overall time gets less and less useful as a benchmark.

Pressino
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#4: Post by Pressino »

Timing extraction from "first drops" is IMO not particularly useful, partly for the reasons just mentioned above. A big problem with that approach to timing is obvious when there is a longer delay in the time between pump on and the appearance of first drops. With an e61 machine, for example, waiting much more than 10-15 seconds for the appearance of first drops means that your puck is not extracting normally (likely ground too finely or otherwise presenting too much early resistance) and your shot will taste bad, usually very bad...even if you manage to get your desired ratio withing a "normal" extraction time range (counting from the time of first drops).

iyayy
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#5: Post by iyayy »

congratulation. you have graduated from the 30s mindset.
different beans n roasts dont behave the same, some takes more, some needs more, others less.
start noting recipe, brew however you fancy, savor and enjoy your coffee.

personally i always consider water contact time as part of extraction. its also how most timer on machine starts counting, if they have it.
but fresh undegassed coffee usually doesnt drip so early, or maybe even consistently, so do whats convenient for you.

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cafeIKE
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#6: Post by cafeIKE »

Pressino wrote:Timing extraction from "first drops" is IMO not particularly useful, partly for the reasons just mentioned above. A big problem with that approach to timing is obvious when there is a longer delay in the time between pump on and the appearance of first drops. With an e61 machine, for example, waiting much more than 10-15 seconds for the appearance of first drops means that your puck is not extracting normally (likely ground too finely or otherwise presenting too much early resistance) and your shot will taste bad, usually very bad...even if you manage to get your desired ratio withing a "normal" extraction time range (counting from the time of first drops).
Perhaps it comes down to feel. When you've made tens of thousands of shots, the timer is somewhat superfluous. Good for dialing and making reference notes, but not really required after. Perhaps necessary if the blend changes daily.

The problem with timing from pump on is you can have a slow infusion that then channels and voila 30ml in 30s... DTS - direct to sink.

Perhaps it comes down to shot style. Those liking watery shots may prefer from pump on while those preferring intense shots may find first drop more useful.

It's swings and roundabouts. There is no correct answer.

Milligan
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#7: Post by Milligan »

You've got to time based on your machine. For example, I know on my GS3 I should start seeing drips in around 7-11s from pump on. 7s for a higher volume shot and 11s for ristretto. Then the full shot time from pump on typically hits between 28-34s depending, again, on the shot volume or specific coffee. I got to know my machine after hundreds of shots and many types of coffee. The 1:2 in 30s is a very loose general rule of thumb to get you started. I don't use preinfusion but my machine has a flow restrictor to not hit the puck hard.

IMO, it is best to use time from pump on. First because it is the only time that is not influenced by the shot itself. Second, that way you get "time to first drip" as another metric of useful data and as an early indicator of how the shot will go.