2nd Shot Always Pulling Faster Than 1st

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#1: Post by fred_s »

Hello All,

I've been struggling for the last week or so to pull consistent shots using the same preparation. It seems that the 2nd shot keep coming out 8-10 seconds faster than the 1st.

ECM Synchronika, IMS 200N shower screen, 18G VST basket, DF64P with stock burrs, bottomless portafilter. Using beans roasted Nov 24th from local roaster.

17.5G with target being 30G out in 32 seconds as per roaster recommandation.

1. Machine is turned on for 30 minutes with portafilter in to warm up. PID is set to 200 for brew. 265 for steam.
2. Weigh out beans to 17.5G, RDT, Grind into portafilter with funnel
3. WDT, Tamp
4. Pull 1st shot, within target.
5. Dump grind, clean, dry, same grind and puck prep all within 1-2 minutes.
6. Pull shot and it comes out too fast. About 8-10 seconds faster.
7. Purge water from steam head, steam milk.

If I adjust the grind finer, the 1st comes out too slow the next morning. Not really understanding why the 2nd shots keep coming out faster than the first.

I tried flushing the grouphead for 10-15 seconds this morning before 1st shot and 5-10 seconds before second. Same problem. Machine is PID DB so did not think this would of been the issue to begin with.

Grinder is 0 retention and pumped with bellow after each use.

Not really sure what I am doing wrong! any help appreciated.


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#2: Post by spressomon »

Depending on the beans, 22-days post roast is a bit of a stretch for anything other than high density, light roast level beans.

Accuracy of the scale; try a different scale? Ambient air/scale temperature differences of the scale between shots?

Aside from the above: Although I've never used an e61 machine, I understand "they" say 25-35 minutes to fully heat saturated group but when I had my Londinium LI with its similarly exposed group, it really took about 1-hour to become fully heat saturated. Maybe, for grins, try pulling your first shot at 1-hour after turn on?
No Espresso = Depresso

fred_s (original poster)

#3: Post by fred_s (original poster) »

I'll try the 1 hour warm up and different scales after and get back with comments. As for the beans I would assume if the date was an issue it would be so for both shots?


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#4: Post by yakster »

Grind both doses and use the second one you ground first to see if the problem follows the grinder or the espresso machine. If the dose you ground second still pulls faster when you pull it first then it's grinder related, otherwise if the second shot pulls faster with the first dose then look to your espresso machine.

Usually you run into problems of the first shot pulling faster if there's stale grinds left in the grinder overnight, the second shot pulling faster makes it sound more like an espresso machine problem than a grinder problem. I'd probably test a longer warm-up first before switching the order of the shots from the grinder.

The 22 day post roast issue shouldn't be this consistent, but it may be easier to get inconsistent shots or shots that run faster with older coffee.

LMWDP # 272

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#5: Post by dominico »

Do you also dry the shower screen?

If water gets to the puck before you start brewing it can cause the shot to run faster.
If there is enough residual moisture on the shower screen it can cause this. Also, if you are also using a puck screen: if the puck screen is damp from recent use it will also cause the shot to run faster.
Il caffè è un piacere, se non è buono che piacere è?

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BaristaBoy E61

#6: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

Welcome to HB Fred

I would allow the machine a 1-hr warm up and change the 2nd shot to a finer grind or increased dose to get the result you are looking for.

You'll only know how zero retention the grinder is after it's been disassembled, cleaned with the retained coffee weighed.

Judge by taste, have fun & enjoy the ride.
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

fred_s (original poster)

#7: Post by fred_s (original poster) »

I will try the longer warm up and weigh both the ins and outs from the grinder while switching the second grind for the first etc. All these things should at least eliminate some possibilities.

I also do not dry the shower screen in between shots. I can try that also. I dont really want to have to dry the shower screen in between shots or adjust grind in between either, seems like can get really tricky! Haven't even started playing with pre-infusion or flow control yet.

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BaristaBoy E61

#8: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

For me drying the shower screen after each shot is part of the cleaning process.
Also having a shot mirror that is useful during the shot to monitor shot development is also useful to keep an eye on the shower screen condition as well.
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

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#9: Post by spressomon »

Fred, you're in good hands here!
No Espresso = Depresso


#10: Post by iyayy »

i'd add 2 steps.

1.5 purge some water from the head, to remove any cool water residue inside the group path.
2.5 weight output beans, to ensure u are on 17.5g in the basket, not more. (u can kinda skip this and dose bit more once u are familiar with the grinders pattern of common retention).

also df64 stock declumper is known to be notorious in retaining grounds, altho carefully reading it seems any grinder with declumper will have to some residue issies to an extent without tapping/bellowing. even niche zero isnt so zero and has been mentioned several times here and there to benefit from bellows. hand grinder isnt exception, with oily beans and not tapping or brushing i've had a bit more than 1.5g sticking at the bottom burrs.

good luck.