Why RoR is a bad reference for ... [webinar]

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
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baldheadracing
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#1: Post by baldheadracing »

I don't think that there is a lot of disagreement on this - at least compared to my recollection of what Rao said in the workshop that I went to a few years ago. People's interpretations, though ...

Full title:
Why Rate of Rise is a bad reference point for optimizing flavour in coffee roasting
- Morten Münchow of CoffeeMind

Blog post:
https://coffee-mind.com/why-rate-of-ris ... nce-point/

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Brewzologist
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#2: Post by Brewzologist »

-- Removed post as it's irrelevant. 8)

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mkane
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#3: Post by mkane »

..meh

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another_jim
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#4: Post by another_jim »

The blog post makes some useful points. However, the main problem seems to go unmentioned - a major contributor to the roast flavor is the environmental temperature. If it is too high, the coffee gets acrid; and if it is too low, the taste can get so focused and pure that it becomes boring (although fast roasts using low ETs and very small doses are great for cupping).

But the point is that you can get the same bean temperature profile for the entire roast, and therefore, by mathematical necessity, the same rate of rise for the entire roast, and still get a different tasting roast if you use 1) a high bean load and a high ET, or 2) a low bean load and a low ET.

Using BT or delta-BT doesn't matter, it's still only one variable in a two variable (BT and ET) roast profile.
Jim Schulman
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rmongiovi
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#5: Post by rmongiovi »

I thought "steadily declining RoR" was intended to optimize the development of the center of the bean compared to the exterior, not to optimize flavor. For flavor you'd look at the particular slope of your steadily declining RoR.

I confess I nodded off before the webinar was (half) finished. Does he ever propose an alternative to steadily declining RoR, or is he just arguing that a straight RoR all by itself doesn't say anything about the flavor you're going to achieve? If you don't at least try to avoid the crash and flick then what is the alternative? Don't worry be happy?

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another_jim
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#6: Post by another_jim »

He suggests that people who tell you to keep your Ror steadily declining should take remedial math and physics .., along with anyone who listens. It's like saying you should make sure gravity stays constant throughout your roast, because if it doesn't, the taste will suck.
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OldmatefromOZ
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#7: Post by OldmatefromOZ »

What Jim wrote is basically the concise underlying factor of any type of cooking. How hot is your oven? How long do you want to cook at what temperature? How big is the thing that your cooking?

The distillation of Morten's data based approach is that in blind tasting, for most people the biggest determining factor for flavour outcomes is roast colour. This is determined primarily by the "environment" the coffee is roasting in as Jim said "environment temperature". Closely followed by what end temperature you drop the batch will determine colour and then the time it took you to get to that temperature.

Larger batches take longer and often require higher burner settings with higher airflow. This will produce vastly different overall flavour outcome opposed to your smallest possible batch using the lowest gas / airflow combination that will sufficiently "cook" the beans all the way through in shortest possible time.

The issues around ROR that plateaus or increases before first crack, subsequently crashes to near zero, stalls for a bit and then rapidly increases (flicks), most definitely create unwanted flavours BUT are not worth worrying about (statistically insignificant) when talking about general consumers preference for certain flavour profiles.

This is the gist of the "time wasting" speech, obsession over minutia that most people will not know or care about. What they will care about is that if you dont have some understanding of your machines capabilities for roasting a certain batch size in certain amount of time using certain temperatures which generate the overall flavour experience they desire.
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Brewzologist
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#8: Post by Brewzologist »

Thanks Stephen; well said.

I'll just add the concerns in the blog/video about RoR being slow or noisy can be largely addressed by RTD probes and good meters. Thanks to Marko at Artisan for the work he did to determine this.

rmongiovi
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#9: Post by rmongiovi »

OldmatefromOZ wrote:The issues around ROR that plateaus or increases before first crack, subsequently crashes to near zero, stalls for a bit and then rapidly increases (flicks), most definitely create unwanted flavours BUT are not worth worrying about (statistically insignificant) when talking about general consumers preference for certain flavour profiles.
It seems to me that if civilization had advanced based on what the average human can appreciate we'd still be living in caves. Arguing for that as the criterion for roasting coffee doesn't impress me. Isn't educating the average person to appreciate better more valuable than dumbing down to their level?

The average guy is happy with Folgers. I'd like to think my goals are a bit loftier than that.

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#10: Post by OldmatefromOZ replying to rmongiovi »

I think you might be misunderstanding the point. It has nothing to do with dumbing down and I dont really see what comparisons to the advancement of modern civilisation has to do with flavours in coffee roasting? Its not about educating end consumer on what they should like. Its about educating newbie roasting business on taking a systematic approach to production roasting for whatever their target market is.

As I said, the issues around ROR most definitely contribute to bad flavour outcomes (roast defect). The point is that managing ROR so that it does not do these things, is far downstream from ensuring that you understand the basic concepts of how "overall flavour" is generated with a particular coffee roasting machines environment temp / batch size. Depending on your market it may be worth pursuing better management of ROR after you have the basics nailed down.

You can have really nice looking ROR and if the basic understanding of roasting environment is not understood, its easy to get pretty foul tasting coffee. ROR guarantees nothing in isolation and often over manipulation of the gas chasing ROR can ruin an otherwise acceptable roast.
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