What is the latest on the storage of coffee greens? - Page 5

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
Rainman
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#41: Post by Rainman »

another_jim wrote:Before everyone gets complimentary on my research, I want to underline how tough this topic is. You are comparing the remembered taste of the fresh beans with the beans as they are now.
Don't mean to put any pressure on you, Jim. I know what science is, and I don't really want to obscess so much about it here at home. Sometimes, you just have to let that level of control go and trust the opinion of a few people here (it's better than using my own, right? At least I think that's the purpose of these forums...). I would hate to waste money on a technology that is far beyond the point of diminishing returns, so I'll continue using zip-lock baggies to store my greens and will roast them in under a year. I've been sorta busy these past few months building up my stash, and I think I have something less than about a years supply so I'm going to stop there and enjoy what I've got. Hopefully, my iRoast will last that long!

Ray

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Compass Coffee
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#42: Post by Compass Coffee »

another_jim wrote:What is the sentence pro roasters say most?

"This bag of coffee doesn't taste anything like the preship sample."
Very true. If the quality of greens isn't high when received storage methods tend to be a mute point. Which is one reason I'll often pay a wee bit more buying virtually all my greens from a picky cupper I trust to cup every lot when it comes in, rejecting any that do not live up to preship sample. Speaking of Tom and Sweet Maria's. I'm not saying there aren't other quality suppliers, but those I've tried other than SM never seemed to have as consistently high standards so I quit trying to save a few pennies per pound.
Mike McGinness

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Compass Coffee
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#43: Post by Compass Coffee »

another_jim wrote:Before everyone gets complimentary on my research, I want to underline how tough this topic is. You are comparing the remembered taste of the fresh beans with the beans as they are now. If you compare frozen to unfrozen greens, you still have to use the memory of the fresh greens as a reference.

This makes me reluctant to opine on subtle changes in the green. The loss of fruit and flowers is obvious enough to to overcome the vagaries of memory. But did the freezing make that taste a little harsher and rougher? change it some way? I can't see how one can either say or deny this barring a time machine.
First let me say I'm not trying to be argumentative. So here's the question. If relying on memory doesn't work to compare results of storage methods how does the cupping system assigning relative values of attributes etc. work at all?
Mike McGinness

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another_jim
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#44: Post by another_jim »

Compass Coffee wrote:First let me say I'm not trying to be argumentative. So here's the question. If relying on memory doesn't work to compare results of storage methods how does the cupping system assigning relative values of attributes etc. work at all?
Good point.

I have no doubts about "bread and butter" cupping:
-- comparing, say 5 Colombias, side by side and picking the best one (or at least the one the cuppers like best)
-- tasting a sample and deciding that it's acceptable or spoiled

Oddly enough, I do have some problems with what I do on coffeecuppers, that is, rating lots of coffees over the years on an absolute scale. I hope I'm reasonably consistent, but I'm also pretty sure there's a few misjudgements that creep in. Bob and I would prefer to use a large panel, which would cancel out the personal quirks, but it's hard enough just getting ourselves together on this.

My main confusion on the topic of freezing greens is this. Dry grains and beans can be stored indefinitely without freezing; however, these are basically staple items with relatively neutral taste. Fruits and vegetables take a real hit when frozen; and the fact that they are preserved after that is cold comfort. So what is it about green coffee that would preserve it better when frozen, but prevent it from taking a big hit in the freezing?
Jim Schulman

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cannonfodder (original poster)
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#45: Post by cannonfodder (original poster) »

Your fruit analogy is an interesting one. Let me interject that the method of packing and type of freezing is critical. As with fruit (I have a small orchid and large garden) preparation and method of storage will give you radically different end products.

Fruit, or other delicate food stuffs, preserve best when processed as little as possible. A vacuum pack, or near vacuum and flash frozen and stored at very low temperatures preserve very well. I have pulled sliced peaches out of the deep freezer two years after packing that are nearly as good as the day they were picked. The faster you can freeze the product, the better it preserves, but not may people have a liquid nitrogen cooling tunnel, which is how the big produce and meat packer's flash freeze their goods.

While vacuum packing is easy now days, freezing is a little more difficult. When I say flash frozen and stored in a deep freeze, I don't mean your kitchen freezer. I have two chest deep freezers that run around 30 below zero. I have stored beans, vacuum packed and in the bottom of the freezer for over a year with little change in the cup. I will not say that there was no change, there was, but they retained much of their delicate nuances. As to faster staling, my roasts never last more than 6 or 7 days. There was no difference when compared to a new crop roast that I noticed.
Dave Stephens

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#46: Post by Compass Coffee »

another_jim wrote:My main confusion on the topic of freezing greens is this. Dry grains and beans can be stored indefinitely without freezing; however, these are basically staple items with relatively neutral taste. Fruits and vegetables take a real hit when frozen; and the fact that they are preserved after that is cold comfort. So what is it about green coffee that would preserve it better when frozen, but prevent it from taking a big hit in the freezing?
I should make it clear I am not nor have ever been an advocate of freezing greens. Have only done one inconclusive greens freezing test.

OTH I am and have been for a long an advocate for vacuum sealing greens. If for no other reasons does two things better than any other method of common home greens storage IMO. 1) Maintains greens at moisture level and 2) Protects them from any potential contaminations. Unless you have a dedicated humidity controlled greens storage room of course but that is not common for most home roasters.

Would I suggest someone buying a home vacuum sealer strictly for coffee use? Not necessarily and never have suggest it and didn't myself. Coffee is just one of countless vacuum sealer uses to better preverve a countless variety of foods, frozen and unfrozen.
Mike McGinness

LeoZ
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#47: Post by LeoZ »

another_jim wrote:
The theoretical objection to freezing greens (as opposed to roasted coffee) is that they contain about 10% to 15% water. This water will crystallize when frozen and damage the cell walls. I have no way to judge this.
makes perfect sense, unless you have a good supply of dry ice and ideal conditions. freezers are fairly humid.

has anyone actually actually noticed that greens 'expire'? i cant imagine ambient temps being all that bad for them..

nostalgia
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#48: Post by nostalgia »

...merged with similar topic by moderator...



Good morning, everyone! I recently acquired my first espresso machine and am going to try my hand at roasting in the near future. I spoke with my local coffee shop today and they buy their espresso beans pre-roasted, shipped from Italy, so who knows how fresh it is. They also want $15.50/lb for it.

So my questions are on bean storage. I'm the only real coffee drinker in my house, so it's an important question to me, as I won't go through the beans very quickly.

How should green beans be stored? Do they oxidize as roasted beans will?

I'm going to try freezing, as the "To freeze or not to freeze" article was very interesting. How soon after roasting do you generally freeze? Has anyone tried vacuum-packing them first as an extra step, or does the natural gassing of the beans make that a moot point?

Thanks!

-Joe

Abe Carmeli
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#49: Post by Abe Carmeli »

Judging by the results at Terroir, Vac pack & freeze the greens. Two days at Terroir
Abe Carmeli

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Compass Coffee
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#50: Post by Compass Coffee »

Compass Coffee wrote:I should make it clear I am not nor have ever been an advocate of freezing greens. Have only done one inconclusive greens freezing test.
A year and 10 months later I am an advocate of both vacuum sealing and now freezing greens. Particulary any special lot. On day 3 roast rest of Panama Esmeralda Gesha '07 now well over a year old greens, kept vac sealed and frozen, home freezer not flash frozen or deep freeze (also should be noted not an auto-defrost freezer, that would not be good IMO.) Excellent evening Americano, doesn't seem to have lost a beat. Still kicks my (lowly) Esmeralda '08 Lot 5's butt. :wink:
Mike McGinness