mkane wrote:Cupping solves user error.

True yet most people aren't familiar with the protocols.

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:Hmmm one challenge with this is espresso drinkers like myself. Hard enough to pull three alike yet three at the same time so you don't have cooling temps on the early ones. I think I need a bigger machine.

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Definitely a 3 group Slayer. Or would pulling all three shots, just alike, require 3 one group Slayers?

mkane wrote:Cupping solves user error.

I think he's on to something. What about load three baskets, blind those, make espresso? Then pour 1:16 americano ratio. Then cup those in triangle test.

That works.

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:True yet most people aren't familiar with the protocols.

I've tried cupping after watching what's-his-name's - Hoffmann's - video. While it makes sense to compare the cupping to pour-over, I don't know how to relate the experience to espresso. Is that something one gets with practice? Cup - make espresso - repeat?

Newbie question, but given the resting time needed for espresso, I think I'll have to learn to cup.

learning to cup's the easy part. Learning what to taste for and how to write it down is the hard part

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:True yet most people aren't familiar with the protocols.

mgrayson wrote:I've tried cupping after watching what's-his-name's - Hoffmann's - video. While it makes sense to compare the cupping to pour-over, I don't know how to relate the experience to espresso. Is that something one gets with practice? Cup - make espresso - repeat?

Newbie question, but given the resting time needed for espresso, I think I'll have to learn to cup.

It's a tool and you may not need to follow exactly anyone's protocol but your own. For example, could one get a sense of how the roast you like for espresso from beans you like, cups; then with that knowledge and skill, acquire some samples and roast them similarly, and instead of making espresso of all of them, cup them and then with confidence, buy in quantitiy the selection to use for your preferred espresso profile?

OTOH, for discussion in the forum, to have some exercise that allows us to calibrate taste, and coffee experience in general, cupping may be another way to achieve that. The on-line method is a challenge to that end.

I think cupping protocols are really pretty easy. And it's the least complex brew method with fewer variables that may skew results between different people. I think Facsimile did a pretty good job at this.

But for me, Facsimile also demonstrated how hard it is to describe tasting. Even the pro's couldn't agree all the time, or articulate how they arrived at certain taste perceptions. Not criticizing Facsimile; I think tasting is just fundamentally difficult and thus subjective.

I try to do single blind triangle tests a bit, but often want to keep my QC/educational work efficient, so I'll often do a flight of 6-10 cups in a single blind cupping and hide one of each of the two cups in that flight. What I haven't done is to hide a full triangle in a normal flight, which I should really have a go at.

I agree that it's quite difficult to do a triangle test with espresso, and I don't as part of anything that I ordinarily do. However, if you did want to triangle test things as espresso, one way that makes it a little easier is to do it as americanos. The greater volume of hot water added at the beginning keeps the temperatures closer to consistent. I guess you could hypothetically make the hot water temperature just a little colder for each subsequent americano that you brew (eg. by mixing in a little more tap water into hot water) to try to get the americano temperatures as close as possible. I guess that the most recent brew will probably have the most intact crema. Possible solutions would be to add the water second to mix the crema through all of the brews or to skim each cup of the crema and discard it after each brew (you probably don't want to skim them all at once, since the first brew will have had its crema dissipate to a greater extent than the subsequent brews).

This would help. https://www.winearomas.com/shop/LeNezduCafe/

luca wrote:I try to do single blind triangle tests a bit, but often want to keep my QC/educational work efficient, so I'll often do a flight of 6-10 cups in a single blind cupping and hide one of each of the two cups in that flight. What I haven't done is to hide a full triangle in a normal flight, which I should really have a go at.

I agree that it's quite difficult to do a triangle test with espresso, and I don't as part of anything that I ordinarily do. However, if you did want to triangle test things as espresso, one way that makes it a little easier is to do it as americanos. The greater volume of hot water added at the beginning keeps the temperatures closer to consistent. I guess you could hypothetically make the hot water temperature just a little colder for each subsequent americano that you brew (eg. by mixing in a little more tap water into hot water) to try to get the americano temperatures as close as possible. I guess that the most recent brew will probably have the most intact crema. Possible solutions would be to add the water second to mix the crema through all of the brews or to skim each cup of the crema and discard it after each brew (you probably don't want to skim them all at once, since the first brew will have had its crema dissipate to a greater extent than the subsequent brews).

@luca. In the 10 cup or 6, what would the other cups be relative to the triangle? Just any cupping and then include 3 similar but one the odd or off cup?

Also in your experience how do large volume roasters use cupping to inform decisions about espresso coffees and roast?

Thanks.