Compass Coffee wrote:This is where I'm confused. If 7-10min to 415f from start of 1st @395f, a 20f temp rise, and experimenting with 10f/min ramp doesn't fit the 3 minute 7-10 minutes!? Also if I understand correctly, you're using a total time of 5 min from start of 1st to end of roast for espresso roasts? (Which happens to be what I just shortened mine down to from 6 min with good results.)

The final ramp(s) starts at 380F; look at the chart. I want to slow the beans fdown ahead of the first, since the colors get uneven there. The speed up after the first is based on the same theory: "go as fast as keeping the colors even allows."

cpl593h wrote:Jim - is this a preblend? I have both of those in my stash, I'd love to see if I get similar results.

Actually; it'll probably taste beeter to take the Cenaproc to the first pops, while pulling the Idido a little ahead of that. Use a lower dose and finer grind than your usual for these lighter roasted blends.

another_jim wrote:The final ramp(s) starts at 380F; look at the chart.

Duh, so I need glasses!

I want to slow the beans fdown ahead of the first, since the colors get uneven there. The speed up after the first is based on the same theory: "go as fast as keeping the colors even allows."

I've been using these benchmarks for some time. IMO, it's the most convincing argument for on-the-fly (instant-response) control. Conversely, it argues against any set-and-forget programmed roaster unless the electronics are very sophisticated, one has lots of experience with a particular bean/crop, and environmental conditions are stabile from roast-to-roast (which, basically, applies to a tiny percent of home roasters). Absent these conditions, most folks would do well to sit and watch---- with their hand on the throttle. This "ramp-rule" may also explain a portion of the bad rap small-batch air roasting gives to air roasting generally-----thinking here of very fast roasts.

I'd add that the "speed up" when 1st is about to get going helps shorten or compress the duration (for most beans) of 1st c., and it therefore allows a longer gap between 1st and 2nd, if that's what one is after.
Martin

Martin wrote:

That's one profile approach, like my profile #3 current profile roast comparisons. Currently both Jim and I were experimenting with the opposite though for espresso roasts: slow through 1st then speed up after 1st to end of roast (not necessarily to 2nd.)

Compass Coffee wrote:That's one profile approach, like my profile #3 current profile roast comparisons. Currently both Jim and I were experimenting with the opposite though for espresso roasts: slow through 1st then speed up after 1st to end of roast (not necessarily to 2nd.)

I'll be interested in the findings from these experiments. Admit to my post drifting a bit. As you might assume, HG/DB is not an finely tuned experimental tool; however, it can follow roasting principles that have been established over time. To me, the key is to translate those principles into roasts. That #3 (I guess) is, IMO, rock solid for many beans.

Martin (a man of few principles)

Martin wrote:I'll be interested in the findings from these experiments. Admit to my post drifting a bit. As you might assume, HG/DB is not an finely tuned experimental tool; however, it can follow roasting principles that have been established over time. To me, the key is to translate those principles into roasts. That #3 (I guess) is, IMO, rock solid for many beans.
Martin (a man of few principles)

While I'd been using mostly fast-slow profiles start of 1st to end of roast for quite some time (variations of #3 being tested) been recently having excellent results with slow-fast (like #2 but 3:30 total time) for beans like WP Yirg'. With WP Yirg' my theory was going for a complete bean City+ with a kind of intra-bean melange effect darker FC outer bean only. I really like the results in the cup, but this isn't for straight shots but rather primarily Americanos and cappuccinos. If WP Yirg' meant for primarily straight shots I'd take the total start of 1st to end of roast time longer than 3:30.

My results are in. The roasts wth the speedup after the first crack were brighter, despite going to the same roast level in the same time. If you check barista techniques, you'll see this no longer bothers me; and the resulting shots taste substantially better. The nougat from the Cenaproc and the florals and apricots from the Idido are all there, but the oddball to annoying green tea bitterness from the Idido is not (green tea has its place, but, IMO, not in espresso shots).

Wow! I wouldn't have expected that. Not that I am an expert or anything....

Am I right to conclude that based on this you don't see much value in "stretching" between first and second, but rather only during first, and then want to race to the end?

Also, when you say these roasts were "brighter," I am assuming that, though they were brighter, they still sweetened up, which I guess would be the whole point for you (and incidentally, for me too) given that I gather you like the sweetness, and quite a breakthrough. Just looking to clarify. If that's the case, I'll try that right away.


Thanks Jim, very interesting!
Paul

HAL9000 wrote:Wow! I wouldn't have expected that. Not that I am an expert or anything....
Am I right to conclude that based on this you don't see much value in "stretching" between first and second, but rather only during first, and then want to race to the end?
Also, when you say these roasts were "brighter," I am assuming that, though they were brighter, they still sweetened up, which I guess would be the whole point for you (and incidentally, for me too) given that I gather you like the sweetness, and quite a breakthrough. Just looking to clarify. If that's the case, I'll try that right away. Thanks Jim, very interesting!Paul

I'm also no expert, but I have opinions anyway. With my degree of cupping skills, I find it extremely problematic to distinguish between degree-of-roast "brightness" and ramp/duration brightness-----especially with limited roasts of particular SOs or (forgetaboudit) blends. I'm also struggling with some water softness/hardness-brightness issues since direct plumbing and locking into one grain or under.

I've learned to pay close attention to Jim's analyses. And I'm looking forward to this current line of thinking after, say, another year. Until then (or, who knows? something more definitive) I'll stick with my default 10 oz, 6-7 minutes to first; 7.5-8 to 9.5 quiet; and maybe some slow second. Coaxing primo brightness will have to remain a function of degree-of-roast for those beans that offer distinctive brightness as well as going through the trouble of post-roast blending.

Martin