Roast and Learn Together - October 2014 - Page 2

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
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TomC (original poster)
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#11: Post by TomC (original poster) »

Almico wrote:I'm in on this one. A low altitude pulp natural can be a fun challenge.

I ordered 5# and will play around with a few profiles, including my now world famous 35 minute profile just for yucks and giggles.

My goal will likely be to bleed out most of the acid and see what other nuances I can coax out. I'd like to try and get a nice syrupy chocolate bomb if possible.

There isn't really any acidity to bleed out in the first place.

This coffee is fortunately very clean. I ran my profile intentionally short on development, but not on time. I wanted to maximize whatever sweetness it has. Typically, these aren't a coffee that I'd put a lot of development time into, since woody, bitter notes often dominate if you do.
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#12: Post by Almico »

TomC wrote:There isn't really any acidity to bleed out in the first place.
That's a good thing. Between my micro lot natural CRs and recent Ethiopians, I've had my fill of bright coffee.

I have a bunch of Brazilian Cerrado that I've been working with and it's nice when I can get the bitter out. It leaves a nice, full, round, drippy mouth feel when I get it right. I find a longer development is required, however, to get all the sweet. But maybe the "sweet" I'm thinking of is not the same as what sweet means to you.

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#13: Post by jalpert »

Roast date: 10/9/2014
Equipment: Behmor 1600+

Charge mass: 205g
End mass: 177g
Weight loss: 13.7%

Time to end of drying: 4:30 (approx)
Time to 1Cs: 9:45
Time to end 1Cs: 11:20
Drop: 12:00
Dev. time ratio: 19%

Roast profile:

Roast and chart notes:
- I am measuring ET with an Amprobe thermocouple placed on the chaff collector
- The ET spike at 7:30 corresponds to when the afterburner fan kicks in on the Behmor. I typically boost power to 100% when the fan comes on, as the fan creates creates local areas of high and low temp, and I try to keep it steady. BT is certainly smoother than ET represents on this chart.
- Stock drum speed for entire roast (25RPM)
- Goal for the roast was slow and steady RoR to get to 1C around 9-10m, plus ~30-60s development past 1C. I didn't want too much roast flavor in my first profile of this coffee.
- Based on color and development past 1Cs, I'll call this City+. Bean surface is more even than a City roast, but still has some mottling (light brown/dark brown) and centerline is still light. No tipping/scorching or apparent roast defects.
- I got worried about my ROR at around 3:00 and dropped the power to 50% for 30s. This flattened the ROR curve, sadly. I wonder what effect it had.

Tasting notes:
- Aeropress after 48h rest
- Dry grounds: bittersweet chocolate powder, like when you're mashing bars of it up to make fondue
- Aroma: chocolate and possibly roasted nuts
- Acidity: low, but there (somewhat surprisingly)
- Flavor: chocolate all the way
- Body: thicker than an ultrabright dense coffee (coats the tongue), but not overly so
- Sweetness: decent sweetness, but not super sweet by any means
- Balance: I'd actually call this coffee pretty well balanced, no bitterness, fairly sweet, slight acidity
- Complexity: somewhat low, straightforward chocolate

Questions for the more seasoned roasters:

I'd consider this a successful roast, but I know this coffee has more to offer. How do I boost sweetness? What part of the profile do I work to achieve that? I also know this coffee has more flavor to offer, though it was pretty good to begin with.

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#14: Post by [creative nickname] »

Here's an initial report from my first roast, a C+/FC roast that I intended to use primarily for espresso.

Roasting Info:

Bean: Brazil Minas Gerais, Murilo Neiva Junqueiro
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Charge Mass: 400g
Charge Temp: 300F
Dry/Ramp/Development: 6/3:15/3:45
FC-start temp: 375F
Finish Temp: 408F
Overall Roast Time: 13:04
Moisture Loss: 16%

Profile Plot:

Tasting Notes:

Rest: 2 days (yeah, I know, but I was curious!)
Brewer: Caravel
Grinder: HG-one, moderate setting
Water: 199F approx. brew temp
Coffee: 11.5g in (single basket), 11.5g out

Dry Fragrance: Dark chocolate, leather, allspice, cloves

Warm taste: Rich dark chocolate, a hint of poblano chili, burnt caramel, faint notes of red currant acidity. Creamy, satisfyingly deep body, with a lingering, bittersweet finish.

Cool cup: I didn't have enough left to evaluate this cool; it was too tasty to wait!

Overall Impression: This is a very different kind of coffee than the SOs I normally brew, but it made for a delicious single. It pulled as a crema bomb, and had a wonderfully mouth-coating body and a great balance of bitter and sweet flavors. I'm very pleased with how my first try came out, and look forward to many more shots. The hardest part will be deciding whether I want to use this in blends, or just keep it for SO comfort food shots.
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#15: Post by Goldensncoffee »

Roast date:10/12/14
Roaster: Mod. P1
Charge Weight: 115g
Charge temp 225F
Moisture loss: 14%
23% DEV ratio


3:00- 280
4:00- 305
5:00- 330
6:00- 355
7:00- 375
8:00- 390 (1C @ 8:30)
9:00- 405
10:00- 411
11:00- 422 END

Brewed 10/14
Breville smart grinder
Chemex 35g/567gwater

I really enjoyed this cup. Its pretty straightforward. The sweetness really stands out. I'm getting mostly chocolate notes. The mouthfeel is pretty thick and the finish just stays with you for about 30 seconds. Glad I bought 5# of this bean.

Next roast I'm going to try slightly lighter and see what she does.

Any roast swapping going on this month?

Took the last roast into the first snaps of 2c. (435F) Drank 1 day post roast. It was fantastic. I enjoyed it even more than the last roast. I cant wait to have it again tomorrow morning. :D

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#16: Post by [creative nickname] »

I'm in for another swap this month. Anybody else?
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TomC (original poster)
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#17: Post by TomC (original poster) »

Here's what I got on my first roast, aiming only to see what inherent sweetness I can retain without developing it too far. All roasts are 250g on the Quest M3 with smoothing applied. General approach to Brazilian coffee for me is to dry longer, develop shorter with lower ET's. I think pushing the dry distillate notes out of low density coffees like these often yield unpleasant woody astringent notes, but that's an early call.

The coffee shows simplicity, balance and is quite clean, which to me greatly boosts its utility. The sweetness was evident and it has a nice body and coating mouthfeel. It aged well, improving with some mild sherry like finish notes and I was pretty certain it would make a great espresso component. Its funny that it's a Brazilian coffee that clearly has a Brazil nut flavor. Maybe I should just write filberts :) It might be a bit ho-hum as a SO, if complexity and acidity is what you're after, but I separated a portion of my second, more developed profile to pull shots with. Artisan was acting buggy on me and I couldn't properly edit my charge and drop points, but they're pretty evident.

My espresso blend-destined profile took it into a greater level of development. It will be a few days before I see what it has to it. It seems like a perfect compliment to Ethiopia DP Kochore, which will bring the needed acidity and fruity tones, but also has an excellent body on its own. The blend was 60% Brazil, 40% Ethiopia and I'll dig into that in a few days.

Update: More espresso blending notes.

- I was happy to find that my less developed roast still excelled as an espresso component, whereas the 14% roast lacked sweetness and was hindered by astringency in the finish. Interesting though, was the 14% roast clearly had a vast array of cask aged components. The lush body and sweetness of the lighter roast was missing, but on the initial sip, it made for a more interesting flavor.

I tried a quick 50/50 blend with some of the 14% Brazil along with Yemen Red Mountains, but the lack of caramel sweetness allowed the intensity of the distillates to greatly overpower the results. I have some amazing Colombian's that I picked up from Aleco at Red Fox that would ( I think) make a dynamite blend component in this, with a reduction of the Yemen in the blend.
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#18: Post by [creative nickname] »

Thought provoking as usual, Tom. 7:15/3:45/1:30 is a pretty radical espresso profile; I generally want at least 2 minutes of development before I'd consider a roast a good candidate for espresso, as most coffees have too much acidity to be tamed without more development than that. But you are probably right that this particular coffee might pull great shots with fairly light roasts. Now I'm curious to experiment with something like this myself.

Although I do have to add, for the record, that my roast (6/3:15/3:45) didn't show any unpleasant woody flavors or astringency. The shots so far have been like rich, bittersweet chocolate syrup, with little hints of pepper and a slight note of red currants. I'll have to freeze some of this and taste it side by side with a lighter, and probably sweeter, roast of this coffee, and see how they compare.
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#19: Post by NoStream »

TomC wrote:[snip]
Very interesting profiles. Would you mind either posting slightly larger pictures or listing the numbers? Also, could you clarify what the black line is? I'd assume MET, but those numbers are higher than my MET probe reads, and higher than I believe they are in other roasts of yours that I've seen. Or maybe it's just due to fan settings.


Here's my first stab at a profile. This will be updated with cupping / brewing results in 4-5 days.

Green coffee: Brazil Minas Gerais, Murilo Neiva Junqueiro
Green coffee density: Low
Green coffee processing: Semi-Washed

Roast date:10/14/14
Roaster: Quest M3

Charge weight: 150.0g
Charge temp 430 F MET

Moisture loss: (couldn't calculate - didn't catch all the beans)
"Dry"/Ramp/Development: 4:30/5:15/1:45, 11:30 total (vs. 5-4-2 goal)
FC-start temp: 391 F (approx. 10 F higher than usual)
Finish Temp: 405 F

I was attempting something like a slow start, fast finish profile, something which I haven't really attempted before. Anyway, I wound up being a little too generous with heat at the start (around 5 amps vs. maybe 3 or so), so drying was a little fast. MET bottomed out too late, so I was slow to power into the ramp phase, and so ramp took too long. While I normally feel comfortable pushing MET to 490-500 with dense, washed coffees, this was neither, so I maxed out around 460 F MET. Development took around two minutes as planned and did not stall. I dropped at 405 as planned to evaluate the green coffee.

Plenty of mistakes, but I'm only about 10 roasts in on the Quest, and the Kenya Kirinyaga Kamwangi I did after came out exactly as planned, so I can only ask for so much. Please do offer any feedback you'd like. Mostly, I see the overly low dry/ramp ratio as problematic.

Tasting results - 10/16/14, 2 days post-roast
Cupping; 1:17, 203 F, medium-coarse (8.5 on an EK)

Dry fragrance - pungent, earthy, spicy - reminiscent of a traditional espresso blend
Wet aroma - muted butteriness, citrus, red bean soup
Break - savory pinto beans, earth
Flavor - prominent cellulose ("cardboard," reminds me of a decaf), steak, black beans, indistinct citrus; the steak + bean + a hint of citrus reminds me of a burrito, and not in a good way

Espresso results - 10/19/14, 5 days post-roast
15.0 g in a VST 15, ~197 F at the grouphead, 23.2 g out in 30s (65%).

The shot's all butter and lemon, quite sweet with solid body. I can get some hints of a certain savoriness in the background, but that's only because I cupped the coffee and know it's there. I'm surprised the espresso is this decent given the flaws in the roast and how light I dropped it (city). I'm not even sure if I want to drop it darker as an "espresso roast"... maybe just a few degrees?

So, as should probably be clear from these notes, this roast was pretty bad as brewed coffee... but actually really quite decent as espresso.

So this roast most definitely spent too long in ramp, and perhaps also not enough time in dry? In any case, I'll push it a few degrees darker (5:30-4-2:30, 410 drop on my roaster) and try to actually hit my targets. I don't think there's any way I'll enjoy this coffee as drip - not bright enough, and not ideal at a light city roast - but it could be pleasant as espresso. I'm assuming the excessively long ramp created a bunch of maillard products and ultimately a really savory cup. I do think this coffee should at least offer a pleasantly rustic sweetness when roasted properly.


Roast 2:

Green coffee: Brazil Minas Gerais, Murilo Neiva Junqueiro
Green coffee density: Low
Green coffee processing: Semi-Washed

Roast date:10/22/14
Roaster: Quest M3

Charge weight: 150.0g
Charge temp 400 F MET

Moisture loss: 13.9%
"Dry"/Ramp/Development: 5:45/4:54/1:54, 12:33 total (vs. 5:30-4-2 goal)
FC-start temp: ~391 F (approx. 10 F higher than usual)
Finish Temp: 408 F (city-to-city+, for SOE)

I was decently happy with this roast. I spent ramp at around 470 F met, which seemed like a good upper limit for a non-dense, semi-washed coffee. I'd like to ramp faster, but would have a hard time getting it too much lower. Maybe in a perfectly-tuned roast I could get ramp down to 4 minutes.

I kept it pretty light (408) because my last roast at 405 drop was quite tasty as espresso and I'm not looking to introduce a bunch of distillate flavors into the cup, but rather ripe citrus, chocolate, caramel, and buttercream. I have a bit over a pound left and may play with some more profiles but think this one is pretty close to what I'd settle on.

Tasting notes:

2 days post, V60, 1:18, ~21% extraction

Bean stew, worcestershire, cellulose, ham, walnut
Flat acidity, little sweetness
(not pleasant)

7 days post, HG One --> CC1, 197 F at grouphead, 15.0 g dose in VST 15
19.5 g in 32 s (76.9% brew ratio)
lemon candy, spice, vanilla
moderate acidity, quite sweet with plenty of caramels
not exciting but something I would drink happily

EK43 --> CC1, 197 F at grouphead, 16.0 g dose in VST 15
61.4 g in 30s (24.4% brew ratio)
smooth lemon, buttercream, great sweetness, rich and round
a really pleasant but unexciting cup

So in the end, this coffee is quite pleasant and clean, but I would really only use it for espresso. It's a very solid but not exceptional or interesting SOE, and it would perform well as 40-70% of an espresso blend. If I got this coffee roasted this way and it had a Black Cat Analog label on it, I'd be perfectly content.

I have 1.3 lbs left and am not really sure what to do with it. It'll probably be blended for espresso purposes in due time.

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#20: Post by SAS »

Drinking October 7th Roast

AeroPress October 15, 2014
This was a very different cup of coffee from what I have been roasting and drinking.
A very sweet, clean and smooth cup but not much lot of flavor. I couldn't identify any specific flavors. No chocolate flavor at all. I did enjoy the change of pace from what I have been drinking. I'll try an espresso later today.
Espresso October 15, 2014
Very sweet, tons of bittersweet chocolate and a lot more brightness.

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