Pardon my language but...

WTF is baked. The fact that you paid for that kit and those are the two profiles between GOOD and BAKED is almost absurd (I'm angry even look at the profile lol). That is such little difference its almost unbelievable. Even in the link to the blog, what makes the baked curve baked. What really is BAKED? Its thrown around so often without a solid explanation of what it truly is. If you're trying to educate a customer who is paying for knowledge, shouldn't you be able to clearly demonstrate the difference both visually, and with an explanation?

The profiles in the blog are even more frustrating to me. I'm fairly certain the rate of change Y axis is actually in celsius, not fahrenheit. Am I wrong? And then between profiles, that same rate of change is showing a different range. I'm sorry, this is supposed to be professional?


When did first crack occur in the profiles you were given? (not shown in what you uploaded).


sidenote: I don't believe I have any ability on my bullet to be able to roast with the agility of a ferrari like Mr Rao is indicating one needs. I wish he woudl sell his own coffee or enter competitions to demonstrate his superior technique.

It is in °F but the time window is unknown (my guess is 15 seconds). You don't need a Ferrari, just well placed probes and adaptable heat. I do it as easily on a Mill City as I do on my Loring or used to on a UG-22.

You actually *can* tell from the data when first crack occurs. And it is obvious according to those logs - Rao states that he tastes what he associates with "baked" character when the ROR crashes and flicks. YMMV - I've tasted it in my own roasts and have come to agree.

(Competitions do not validate roasting quality, btw - and occasionally he does release his own roasts, but I digress)

Try applying the arc of his theories to your roasting - I think you'll be surprised how well they improve the repeatability of your profiles and intensity of the cups.

1. Your roaster - Of course you can ... you have a gas roaster. Many on here, myself included do not. Where I'm going is that seemingly, without a roaster that has very rapid control of heat and the energy in the roaster, you may as well be roasting blind folded because there is such small difference in what is "good" "undeveloped" and "baked". You may as well not be a home roaster and just leave it up to the pros. Which is funny cause theres so much pro coffee I've had, which is simply, not...good...
2. Please show me when its occurring in the picture the OP attached.
3. Is it not ironic that the precision in this methodology is contrasted by a lack of precision in axis ranges, and being transparent about the actual rate of change?
4. I still question, what is baked. Why is the term "baked" used? Its associated with crash and flick? Why would that type of behavior bring about the term "baked". I would think of "baked" as quite different. For what its worth, my aggression is that I'm not sure his precision is always validated, and this precision takes so much away from roasting being any form of art, and instead its science, or actually even beyond that - its just a nice charted out curve. In fact, if I could automate a curve to perfectly descend, I would need no human to ever drive a roaster. In fact, I'm surprised the transition to this isn't happening more if getting good coffee is drawing a perfect profile line. Moreover, I've had better tasting coffee from crashes than the smooth line.
5. Please let us know when he releases his own roasts, I REALLY ...really...really want to try them. Alternatively, if you can roast me the same bean in these 3 styles, I'll pay you to ship the samples to me so I can try them. Hell, theres alot of people on here I'd like to pay to try their roasts.


Most importantly, question for OP.

The "good" profile, beans: how did they actually taste in a brew, ideally a pour over? Was it truly good? I'd hope, with this level of precision and all of the time and money in curve madness - it was QUITE delicious. Because after all, we're doing this to drink GOOD coffee, right?

Notably absent from this thread are any comments from people who have actually tasted this RDK. I tasted the RDK at MICE in Melbourne last year, with a room full of people (mainly professional roasters), who all agreed that the differences between the three samples were quite stark and obvious. In fact, it might well have been that the difference between the baked and good samples were too obvious, to the point where Scott and Paolo might have thought that it's better to make the differences a little more subtle. I haven't tasted the RDK for this round, but I gather that this RDK has been prepared to go together with Scott's online roasting course starting today. The best place to ask would be to get one of the participants in that course to post a question on the closed facebook group and see what all the other participants think. Rick, are you doing the course? Could you post there? Or do you want me to see if I can get in touch with Scott or someone who is doing it?

Rickpatbrown wrote:The file that they sent for the roast profile indicates December 27th as the roast date.

They must have pretty much packed the roasts as soon as they roasted them and gotten them into the post. Maybe they had to go so quick that they didn't have enough time to rest the roasts and double-check that the differences were as they wanted them. Or who knows; maybe they mis-bagged one or two samples. Or maybe the samples are good; also a possibility!

Rickpatbrown wrote:So "baked" flavors are actually a flavor ... not a lacking of flavor?
Does it taste like the browning of bread?

Yeah, I think it's both. The fruit and floral flavours end up much more muted. The acidity is lower than you would expect for the roast colour. There is a sort of generic baked/toast/bread flavour, and usually a bit of bitterness. If you have more beans left and you're going to cup it again, I'd pay very close attention to the acidity level and just try to pick it based on acidity. Also, check for a lack of sweetness, as archipelago said.

dale_cooper wrote:WTF is baked. The fact that you paid for that kit and those are the two profiles between GOOD and BAKED is almost absurd (I'm angry even look at the profile lol). That is such little difference its almost unbelievable. Even in the link to the blog, what makes the baked curve baked. What really is BAKED? Its thrown around so often without a solid explanation of what it truly is. If you're trying to educate a customer who is paying for knowledge, shouldn't you be able to clearly demonstrate the difference both visually, and with an explanation?

Either they prepared the RDK properly or they didn't. If what seems to be a small difference in the curves results in the baked flavour on their particular setup, then it does.

Unfortunately, for many setups and coffees, I think that the sweet spot between a good roast and a roast with problems is probably pretty small.

Rickpatbrown wrote:Instead of encouraging. This lesson was quite depressing. I know 100% that my heatgun/breadmachine could NEVER work on these margins. I've roasted what I thought was some pretty nice coffee, though.
I'm getting a Huky in a couple weeks, so I hope that improves my situation. And ultimately, if I can't taste the defect, than it doesn't really apply to me

I think that that's sort of the right approach - make sure that you're happy with what you are producing. If you want to get better, taste lots of coffees side-by-side and do lots of experiments. If you're happy with what you're doing, be happy with it. There are plenty of professional and home roasters who bake every single roast they do and enjoy them, and who would probably find the acidity in a roast free of baked flavour to be objectionable.

dale_cooper wrote:1. Your roaster - Of course you can ... you have a gas roaster. Many on here, myself included do not. Where I'm going is that seemingly, without a roaster that has very rapid control of heat and the energy in the roaster, you may as well be roasting blind folded because there is such small difference in what is "good" "undeveloped" and "baked". You may as well not be a home roaster and just leave it up to the pros. Which is funny cause theres so much pro coffee I've had, which is simply, not...good...

I don't know about that. There are plenty of small domestic drum roasters that have predominantly conductive heat transfer that are very difficult to use. I'm not sure if the Huky fits into that category, but it's entirely possible that it does. There are plenty of commercial machines that are not really very good. Just because something is sold as a roasting machine doesn't mean that it can deliver a good roast with ease.

dale_cooper wrote:5. Please let us know when he releases his own roasts, I REALLY ...really...really want to try them. Alternatively, if you can roast me the same bean in these 3 styles, I'll pay you to ship the samples to me so I can try them. Hell, theres alot of people on here I'd like to pay to try their roasts.

I think Rao describes Paolo at Regalia as his business partner, and Paolo roasts the RDK. I don't think Scott roasts at Regalia, but I think it's a pretty fair bet that he'd be happy with Regalia's roasts. I'm not in the USA, so getting these coffees is pretty expensive for me and I haven't. If you do get a chance to get some, please post up your tasting notes. Here's the link: https://regaliacoffee.com

archipelago wrote:(Competitions do not validate roasting quality, btw - and occasionally he does release his own roasts, but I digress)

Agree. Plenty of problems with most roasting competitions. For example, with some, I think that basically anyone who wants to turn up and has some industry experience can judge, but they have to do a calibration at the beginning. I remember a natural ethiopian coffee winning that competition, so I bought it. It did indeed have a very prominent apricot and mandarin type flavour that was wonderful, but it also had an incredibly high level of bitterness and tasted like someone had crushed a whole asprin into it, creating a disgusting aftertaste that stretched on for an eternity. Entirely possible that the best qualified judges meticulously scored conservatively and then some newbies whose frame of reference is poor, bitter roasts, and who had little exposure and frame of reference for natural processed coffees, who overlooked the bitterness and massively scored up the fruit flavours that wowed them. Over the last 15 years or so, we have also seen a trend for roast times and finishing temperatures to decrease. You could have a panel of judges with prodigious industry experience whose standard of a good roast is a 20 minute roast taken to second crack. Roasting competitions are an excellent way to find coffees that the judges like.

luca wrote:

Yeah, I think it's both. The fruit and floral flavours end up much more muted. The acidity is lower than you would expect for the roast colour. There is a sort of generic baked/toast/bread flavour, and usually a bit of bitterness. If you have more beans left and you're going to cup it again, I'd pay very close attention to the acidity level and just try to pick it based on acidity. Also, check for a lack of sweetness, as archipelago said.

So, baked is that I"m baking or cooking acidity out of the beans which is why they would be flat tasting. Are you saying it also refers to a lack of sweetness present? What would you call muted acidity but good sweetness? Baking thus can occur at any level of roast, however I'm not sure how one can see a curve and determine that coffee is likely baked. That is what I struggle with as it relates to this pursuit of drawing pretty pictures in artisan.

Conversely, undeveloped would be the opposite: I have not developed the bean enough, so my sweeetness has not been built, or, there is such high level acidity that the acidity is overpowering the proper balance that I am aiming for.

Is this fair? I could be a complete idiot but I don't think anyone has really stated what you just did, in years of reading this forum (at least not the baked definition). If my interpretation of your definition is correct, its a practical thing which I can keep in my head and start looking for as I brew my own coffee. In fact, I'm almost sure I've tasted that "baked" note in my own roasts - particularly evident in natural ethiopians which even though they still taste good (cause they're so fruity), are muddy and have that flat lining paper note. Man, thats like a serious light bulb moment.

Can you please post more often? Seriously... Alternatively, maybe the practical solution is to pay for the knowledge and clear direction. I'll have to investigate this online roasting course.
Edit: Hot damn, time to buy a virtual ticket - https://www.scottrao.com/online-coffee-roasting-course



Sidenote: your story about the roasting competition is a funny one, and to me, indicates the hilarity of high end coffee. How a coffee with the aspirin note like you described, won, is sad.

We've offered 10 Roast Defect Kits in the past. Some were quite "easy" to distinguish good from baked. Sometimes the green was so good or fruity that the "baked" roast was still sweet and juicy (though less so than the "good") which confused people. This kit was the most difficult to date to distinguish BUT most of the 35 people at the live class today could tell the difference between "good" and "baked." When roasting the kit, we always debate how challenging to make it, and there is no right answer. Some people would benefit more from a kit with more contrast, some benefit more from less contrast.

"Baked" coffee is due to an ROR "crash." Baking decreases sweetness/roundness/juiciness, and makes coffee more hollow/flatter/straw-like. Whether a coffee is baked becomes easier to discern as a coffee cools. The more dramatic the turndown in the ROR curve, the more baked the coffee is likely to taste.

In my experience, most coffees served by most cafes are baked to some degree. Truly smooth ROR curves with good development and no hint of baking are rare.

I'm sorry if some people want the RDK to be less subtle. We can certainly offer a more subtle kit in the future.

Thanks,
Scott

He does monitor this place

no, but someone sent me a link to this discussion.

Luca and Scott and everyone. Thank you for these comments. This is all so helpful. I'm going to need some time to really digest this info.

It sounds hard to design this simple lessons for varying levels of roasting skill. I guess if I really want to taste baked coffee, I have a lot to choose from in my cupboard .

I wonder if my brewing methods are problematic. Do most people use something like a standard SCA cupping or do they prepare coffee in their favorite method?

Does water have a huge impact? I'm using tap water that has been filter.

I'll try again tomorrow with Poland springs and an open mind.

Rick - I cannot stress more, the importance of water. Your tap water may taste ok, but doesn't have the right minerals for brewing. I've had my own roasts show WILDLY different results, just from water. Water and grind are SO important. Nestle pure life has pretty good water from my experience. I'd encourage you try making your own water from one of the many threads on here. Here is one Matt Perger's water recipe for coffee - Is it ok/safe for espresso machines? What do you think?


Also - since you already bought the RDK, its very much in your best interest to pay to see the online class which Scott did today. It goes hand in hand with that kit.... I'm 60% of the way through and admittedly, its very nice thus far. I still think as home roasters we're very challenged with our equipment.