New Ikawa Home Roaster - 100g capacity - Page 10

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
Espressoman007

#91: Post by Espressoman007 »

NicoHK wrote:You are right but the separation and collection of the chaff is very effective and this chaff is always pale/yellow and never burnt. I guess it's the secret of almost smoke free roasting
You got green coffee beans that are almost naked, without any chaff. And when you roast them past 2c (in any other roaster) they smoke a lot. So I wouldn't bet that "burning chaff" is the only (or any) reason for less smoke with Ikawa.

Cheers!

tallamericano

#92: Post by tallamericano »

I've setup a discord. Hopefully this works better https://discord.gg/jJW7bqKJ

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_Ryan_

#93: Post by _Ryan_ »

Received an email from their R&D team asking about the appeal etc.

Exchanged a few emails, they tried to convince me that the subscription price didn't matter as I'd never use those features- they didn't pitch value, they tried to tell me those features weren't valuable to me and were irrelevant to my purchasing decision.

I said it's likely I'd want to learn after six months of ownership considering my background in advanced technologies. I've done some profiling of cooks with smokers etc. and wanted more control and would expect to want to tinker with everything available to me.
I played out the scenario that if I were to subscribe for 30 of 36 months, I'd be paying more in subscription fees than the roaster and therefore my 3 year ownership cost indicates I should be cross-shopping with roasters twice the price rather than cross-shopping with the Kaffelogic Nano 7 which doesn't paywall it's feature set.

A shame, as this was looking like a good buy.

tallamericano

#94: Post by tallamericano »

Not the best response from them. I too would like the feature as I know users with the pro and they could help me get the best out of the home

ira
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#95: Post by ira »

I posted a question to them a week ago and never got an answer and the chat on the website has not worked since then when I've tried. Are you saying they've gone back on the offer for the free advanced software for early adopters?

Ira

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Peppersass
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#96: Post by Peppersass »

_Ryan_ wrote:Received an email from their R&D team asking about the appeal etc.

Exchanged a few emails, they tried to convince me that the subscription price didn't matter as I'd never use those features- they didn't pitch value, they tried to tell me those features weren't valuable to me and were irrelevant to my purchasing decision.
tallamericano wrote:Not the best response from them. I too would like the feature as I know users with the pro and they could help me get the best out of the home
Ikawa's reply is consistent with my skepticism about profile editing on the Home products and my theory that Ikawa has priced the advanced editing feature so high because they don't want owners to subscribe.

As for translating Pro profiles to a Home, not long ago a Home V1 owner asked me for a copy of the espresso profile I like to use. As a Pro profile won't load into the Home, I sent him the .csv file of temperature and fan settings. He said that he was able to adapt the Pro profile to his Home -- sort of -- but it wasn't straightforward. This is probably because Pro profiles only contain the target exhaust temperatures, not the inlet temperatures required to achieve those exhaust temperatures. No doubt, the inlet temperatures are controlled by a PID that reacts to the measured and target exhaust temperatures. Unfortunately, the inlet temperatures that were used by the PID to achieve the exhaust temperature profile are not recorded in the roast log. [As an aside, the feature that allows you to switch between showing the inlet and exhaust curve in either a profile or a roast log appears to be useless. The curve color changes but it always shows the same curve, which is the exhaust curve.]

[EDIT: I was wrong about the inlet temperatures not being in the .csv file. They are, along with a lot of other data. My bad.]

This makes me wonder how Ikawa produces Home profiles for the greens it sells. It's possible they have a special version of the Pro firmware that records the inlet temperatures that were used by the PID to achieve the target exhaust temperature profile for a roast, and perhaps they have a program that converts that information into a Home profile, bypassing the Home's limit of being able to edit only a limited number of data points. Or something like that.

[EDIT: Per the edit above, Ikawa can use the inlet temperatures recorded in the .csv file, but I think they'd still need a way to bypass the limited number of data points allowed in the Home V1 and 100g editors. The limitation may be why my Pro V3 roast log didn't translate easily to a Home V1].

Again, I've done 54 roasts with my Pro V3 and have yet to edit any curves, other than to shorten one that I probably could have left the same and just dropped earlier. I would guess that 100g Home users will be able to select a profile from the Ikawa library that works for a green sold by Ikawa, and use that without editing for a similar green purchased from another source, and optimize the roast using the 30 combinations of roast controls.

Home users won't be able to do what professionals can do with the Pro series, but that product isn't intended for production roasts. It's designed for evaluating greens and experimenting with different flavor profiles that will be translated to large production roasters. Even then, I suspect most Pro users settle into a limited number of sample profiles. That appears to be what Royal Crown has done: as of September 2020, they roast each green using three profiles that are labelled "Crown Standard" (aka Hot and Fast), "Crown Maillard +30" and "Crown 7m SR LowAF2". They say, "For Ikawa roast analysis we used three profiles that have been designed to observe how the coffee will react and to taste them in order to find which roasting decision will affect the taste we want better."

Please note: I have no financial interest in Ikawa, nor any relationship with them other than as a satisfied Pro V3 customer.
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baldheadracing
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#97: Post by baldheadracing »

Peppersass wrote:Ikawa's reply is consistent with my skepticism about profile editing on the Home products and my theory that Ikawa has priced the advanced editing feature so high because they don't want owners to subscribe.
I agree with you. I spent some time last week with the current Home app on Android (which allows 'advanced' editing) and the eleven profiles the app comes with. I figured that in actual usage I'd be taking one of their profiles and tweaking them a bit ... which is what the basic functionality of the new iOS app allows.

What did strike me as weird was how the upcoming app could have the ability to shorten/lengthen development without (I believe) knowing first crack.

Regardless, they have not responded to my queries (so far), so I'm now glad that I didn't order for that reason alone. (As far as I can tell, USA clients are handled in the USA, so my experience as a Canadian contacting Ikawa in the UK would not be applicable to Americans.)
Peppersass wrote:... Home users won't be able to do what professionals can do with the Pro series, but that product isn't intended for production roasts. ...
Apropos of nothing, I just ordered from a roastery that does production roasts of exclusive coffees using an Ikawa: https://www.roguewavecoffee.ca/collecti ... -mini-pack

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pcdawson

#98: Post by pcdawson »

Ikawa's reply is consistent with my skepticism about profile editing on the Home products and my theory that Ikawa has priced the advanced editing feature so high because they don't want owners to subscribe.

It may be simpler than that. It is obvious from their pricing that they are targeting a US market with this roaster. At 970 USD that's roughly $700 gbp. They can't be making much money off of the machine at that price. I just bought an HP inkjet printer the other day. It was relatively cheap BUT I had to subscribe to their inkjet cartridge program in order to take advantage of some of the printers features. Substitute coffee and apps for inkjet cartridges and voila - a similar business model.

ira
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#99: Post by ira »

I've no objection to buying their coffee subscription if they consistently supply exceptional coffees with working profiles and fully intend to do that, but paying that kind of money for access to a feature in the software is crazy unless it comes with something that's unbelievably magic.

Ira

RyanP

#100: Post by RyanP » replying to ira »


It seems to me that they'd have much more success getting users to pay for the advanced profiling or whatever they call it if they offered the monthly fee along with the option of a one time purchase for lifetime access. That way somebody could pay and trial the advanced features and then decide whether they want to fully commit. Of course, they need to adjust their pricing model... the current monthly cost is kind of silly, imo.