Learning to roast in the Neapolitan style - Page 5

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
OldmatefromOZ

#41: Post by OldmatefromOZ »

Looks like a pretty good first try! Probably just need a little less gas at the start so you dont have to hit brakes so hard.

Sweetness means different things to different people drinking very different roasts of very different green coffee. IMHO there is absolutely no value in roasting 85+ green darker and its a good way to use some greens that might be showing age or funky defects.

Moving slower through start of yellow to start of brown will create complexity while possibly reducing acids which can increase perception of sweetness especially when pulling 1:1 - 1:1.5 shots.

There is definitely much to explore in this zone to help create the rich / complex yet comfort flavours in darker Italian style blends which hold decent flavour even when stale.

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Almico

#42: Post by Almico »

EddyQ wrote: So when choosing a bean to run dark, what would you look for?
I typically roast low-grown, low density coffees dark and high-grown coffee lighter. But I recently roasted a Sumatra very light by mistake and enjoyed it immensely and have a customer that orders my Kenya roasted dark and that is equally good. Good coffee is good coffee. If I had to bet, I would wager that these favored Neapolitan coffees are enjoyed, not because of the roasting method, but because of the high quality coffee being used. Bad coffee does not get suddenly good in the roaster.

I am not in the camp that believes "Rao's Rules" apply only to light-roasted coffees. If anything, they apply to dark roasted coffee even more, just harder to achieve. But when you do, darker roasts can really sparkle.

That said, I haven't ventured into the realm of truly dark roasts. It will be interesting to see how dark I can roast while still maintaining a declining RoR.

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drgary (original poster)
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#43: Post by drgary (original poster) »

Almico wrote:I am not in the camp that believes "Rao's Rules" apply only to light-roasted coffees. If anything, they apply to dark roasted coffee even more, just harder to achieve. But when you do, darker roasts can really sparkle.

That said, I haven't ventured into the realm of truly dark roasts. It will be interesting to see how dark I can roast while still maintaining a declining RoR.
Alan,

I don't think you need to be "in a camp" if you haven't tried and cupped other methods. I quoted Neal Wilson at the start of this thread because he says that violating the steadily declining RoR for dark roasts cups better.

FWIW I am using the steadily declining RoR in lighter roasts. Here's a very recent attempt with a Guatemalan honey-processed coffee that is high-grown at Lake Atitlan.

Gary
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Almico

#44: Post by Almico »

drgary wrote:Alan,

I don't think you need to be "in a camp" if you haven't tried and cupped other methods. I quoted Neal Wilson at the start of this thread because he says that violating the steadily declining RoR for dark roasts cups better.
Begs the question: cups better than what and to whom?

An unmonitored roast approaching 2C will start to take off on its own. You don't need to add heat; RoR will go up dramatically if you do nothing to prevent it. I have tasted many such roasts.

Without seeing one of Neal's roasting curves it is very hard to see exactly what he is trying to achieve and how he is achieving it.

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drgary (original poster)
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#45: Post by drgary (original poster) »

Almico wrote:An unmonitored roast approaching 2C will start to take off on its own. You don't need to add heat; RoR will go up dramatically if you do nothing to prevent it. I have tasted many such roasts.
OldmatefromOZ suggests that gently accelerating the roast post 2C works better. I believe the purpose is to preserve desired flavors in the interior of the bean by achieving target temperature faster.
Gary
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OldmatefromOZ

#46: Post by OldmatefromOZ »

Its worth remembering that speciality high grade coffee is a very small % of worldwide consumption.
Scott Rao spends most of his time consulting on how to optimise a roasting machine / system to get his approach to roasting coffee to work well and consistently with an even smaller %.

From what i have seen of following Neal here and elsewhere, he roasts on Diedrich with very low drum RPM. What ive seen on how these machines are setup is infrared burners very close to a single wall drum which will not work well with Rao methods.

If memory serves me correct? Neal was around 7 min to end of dry / full yellow, 5 min to first crack with whatever finish he was going for and when pushing well into 2nd would require adding heat = classic Diedrich style roast.

Because of his overall slower roasting style its likely the speed of roast through and out of first crack is much slower / carrying less energy and benefits from adding heat.

From the point of view of small SS single wall drum with relatively high RPM and max heat at the start, after first crack / approach to 2nd it will get out of control if left to its own devices and this tastes terrible as Alan suggests.

But its possible to quickly "goose" the gas towards end of first crack, then go back to something a bit less than what it was so that there is a controlled steady rise to 2nd crack and beyond which produces certain types of flavours that many people desire and it can taste pretty good opposed to flying into and through first crack, then lagging / continuously decreased gas just to get a declining ROR. Also when 2nd crack starts the ROR can plummet again and being on a controlled upward trend helps mitigate this.

Its possible to take a more "culinary" approach to coffee roasting and experiment with creating different flavours with different ingredients. Its likely a lot of the Neapolitan style roasts are roasted much slower than what we are discussing here.

EDIT: A screenshot of something which I think represent "another_jim caramel bomb thread". Back to caramel bomb coffees This is a blend right on the cusp of 2nd crack, no oil on the beans except for a couple of spots after 7 to 10 days. It is a nostalgic roast which I will do quite a bit of to send to other people who desire it, 1000s of times. The hot short start allows getting of the gas very early so that its a gentle heat when going through yellow - orange - start of browning which in my experience creates complexity suited to traditional espresso. This can be pulled anywhere from 1:1 - 1:2 at 89 degrees C has plenty of complex sweetness with enough life in the acidity to keep thing interesting.

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Almico

#47: Post by Almico »

OldmatefromOZ wrote:Its worth remembering that speciality high grade coffee is a very small % of worldwide consumption.
Scott Rao spends most of his time consulting on how to optimise a roasting machine / system to get his approach to roasting coffee to work well and consistently with an even smaller %.
I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the US, 48% of coffee consumed is "specialty coffee". That's a pretty amazing stat.

https://sca.coffee/research/specialty-c ... ts-figures

That roast profile looks good, but it would be better without that post 1C dip. 8)



I'm in the camp with Rob Hood that believes that there is a 'pressure cooker" effect with respect to the free water inside coffee seeds during roasting. The faster a roast gets to yellow, i.e. around 4:00, the more pressure builds inside the seed before the water has a chance to escape, which enhances heat transfer from outer to inner and develops a roast sooner. This is consistent with my experience when roasting coffee very light. All else equal, I get a tighter Agtron spread (whole bean/ground) with faster pre-dry times than if I let a coffee go to 5:00+ before yellow. I can drop coffee 10-12* above 1C temp in around 1:00 and still have it be "fully developed", without and vegetal or off-putting attributes.

For darker roasts I go slower into yellow, but speed it up the ramp and keep the pace going through 1C. Lighter roasts I go fast in the beginning and then slow them down to allow more body and complexity to develop during Maillard.

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happycat

#48: Post by happycat »

OldmatefromOZ wrote: Because of his overall slower roasting style its likely the speed of roast through and out of first crack is much slower / carrying less energy and benefits from adding heat.
...

But its possible to quickly "goose" the gas towards end of first crack, then go back to something a bit less than what it was so that there is a controlled steady rise to 2nd crack and beyond which produces certain types of flavours that many people desire and it can taste pretty good opposed to flying into and through first crack, then lagging / continuously decreased gas just to get a declining ROR. Also when 2nd crack starts the ROR can plummet again and being on a controlled upward trend helps mitigate this.

image
Thanks for this explanation and the graph. Helpful!
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happycat

#49: Post by happycat »

Almico wrote:Begs the question: cups better than what and to whom?
True and...
Almico wrote:That roast profile looks good, but it would be better without that post 1C dip. 8)
...see the clever quote above it.

It's a symptom of a gap in this thread. People are arguing from personal experience with no common frame of reference.

A common frame of reference would be:

- an operational definition of the goal
- or everyone sitting around a Zoom call sipping a sample of the goal coffee and finding some common ground in what is being experienced

Based on a shared understanding of the goal, people could then:

(a) agree it is a unique taste experience and requires a different method than Rao;
(b) recognize that the taste experience is not unique and explain how to produce the same or even amplified experience with Rao-style roasting;
(c) disagree that the taste experience is desirable for everyone because some experience it as a defect while others enjoy it.
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yakster
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#50: Post by yakster »

Almico wrote:I'm in the camp with Rob Hood that believes that there is a 'pressure cooker" effect with respect to the free water inside coffee seeds during roasting. The faster a roast gets to yellow, i.e. around 4:00, the more pressure builds inside the seed before the water has a chance to escape, which enhances heat transfer from outer to inner and develops a roast sooner. This is consistent with my experience when roasting coffee very light. All else equal, I get a tighter Agtron spread (whole bean/ground) with faster pre-dry times than if I let a coffee go to 5:00+ before yellow. I can drop coffee 10-12* above 1C temp in around 1:00 and still have it be "fully developed", without and vegetal or off-putting attributes.
As long as we're camping, I'll join you. I noticed when I was roasting in my Behmor that if it took too long to dry that my first crack was really anemic so I started pre-heating the Behmor and lowering the batch size to reduce the dry times. Not sure if that's quite what your saying, maybe I'm camping nearby.
-Chris

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