Almico wrote: But to maintain sweetness and a touch of acidity, while still supplying all those evil dark notes, I believe I would need to do a post roast blend. I don't think you can get that in a SO or pre-blend roast.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense, it's what I do.

drgary wrote: violate the steadily declining RoR and sacrifice some sweetness on the exterior of the bean that goes toward distillates and roastiness while preserving the sweetness on the inside by coaxing RoR into a gentle rise post 1C.

So... roast normally Rao, then sear the outside? Like adding some tipping to a Rao roast?

Not adding tipping. Please see my quote of Neal Wilson in the opening post.

I'm interested in trying to roast a little bit darker but currently only have Kenyans on hand. Any recommendations on what to buy and try?

Sweet Maria's just put this is in stock,
Guatemala Proyecto Xinabajul Paraiso. You guys think it's worth trying with this bean?

Very interesting thread. On the bullet I tried many steadily declining RoR roasts to 2C, but struggle to retain sweetness. Recently been trying a Rao-style roast until about a minute past FC, then either holding or increasing RoR to the edge of 2C. So far this seems to improve sweetness in brewed coffee.

Tangentially: can weight loss be used as a flavor indicator in dark roasts? My dark roasts with weight loss in the 16% and above range taste more bitter and less complex, so been trying to figure out how to roast dark while keeping weight loss below 16%. Wilson's method of increasing RoR post-FC seems to help.

jevenator wrote:I'm interested in trying to roast a little bit darker but currently only have Kenyans on hand. Any recommendations on what to buy and try?

Sweet Maria's just put this is in stock,
Guatemala Proyecto Xinabajul Paraiso. You guys think it's worth trying with this bean?

You might try calling them or other green coffee suppliers and asking what they would recommend for a Neapolitan roast, which has low acidity and is less intense than the usual "French roast."

So far the results of this roast from the other day are quite good.

Day 1 did not leave me hopeful. Day 2 better, or maybe wishful thinking. I tried it today and was pleasantly surprised. Very smooth and sweet with a big chocolate finish. No acidity to speak of. No real roasty notes either. I'm very sensitive to that sandpaper taste on the roof of my mouth when drinking any coffee, but especially darker roasts. That is a deal breaker for me. This had none of that.

I have not had Saka coffee or Neapolitan style coffee in general. Maybe I have. I had a bag of Kimbo once. Can't remember the particulars. So I really don't know the flavor targets here.

I am also not a fan of roasting gyrations in order to extract particular flavors. My MO is to eliminate roast defects, enhance sweetness and leave the rest to the coffee. That said, different roast levels will certainly bring out some flavors and disappear others.

This roast is a 45 Agtron at 425* drop temp. My normal "dark" is 50 at 415. I think for my next roast I will straighten out the RoR and let it go to 435*. I should be able to get there without stalling.

Almico wrote:So far the results of this roast from the other day are quite good.

Day 1 did not leave me hopeful. Day 2 better, or maybe wishful thinking. I tried it today and was pleasantly surprised. Very smooth and sweet with a big chocolate finish. No acidity to speak of.

image

Some neapolitan fan should send Alan a bag of the Saka beans. He has the technical control and dogged peristence to reverse engineer it and share a recipe at the end. If not as one roast, then maybe as a mix.

I'm equally ignorant of the neapolitan style. I'm here to learn how to roast dark.

Almico wrote:My MO is to eliminate roast defects, enhance sweetness and leave the rest to the coffee. That said, different roast levels will certainly bring out some flavors and disappear.

Yes. Totally agree. So when choosing a bean to run dark, what would you look for? I've scratched my head for the past week debating if I should go dark with some nice washed Ethiopian beans I just got and haven't roasted at all yet. Also considering doing my roasts in my Quest so I don't ruin too many good beans.

So there you have it. I never got to try roasting dark this weekend. Soon . . .

I did a dial-in roast* trying to emulate Stephen's method (OldmatefromOZ), which is very different from the Rao steadily declining RoR. I think I got the first part of the roast pretty close and like his innovation of a hot charge, a soak and a gas dip right after end of dry. I will use that method more for this type of roast. Mine was far from the clean roast Alan showed us and had lots of adjustments in order to approximate Stephen's plan. The result was telling in a nice way. It tasted somewhat flat on the day after roast. The second day showed distinct sweetness and low acidity. Because of the hump approaching 1C I had a crash and less intense crack and the flick was larger than intended when intentionally reversing declining RoR to hit 2C faster. There's the dreaded papery note because the rising RoR was too sudden. But that note is less intense than expected and may partially age out as the coffee rests. I'm surprised that the coffee was so sweet. This suggests that the intentional gas dip just after dry didn't rob sweetness from the coffee.

Stephen's method in F abstracted from his post is:

Charge hot as possible and soak, then high heat to 300F
Big gas dip to 340F for 12.5 - 14.5F RoR
Bump gas up to reach 16-18F RoR to 1C
Robust 1C of 1.5 min declines to 9-11F RoR
Increase power to 12.5-14.5 RoR to drop in 2C

Roast should be
4 min to dry
4-5 min to 1C
3.5-4.5 min to drop

This is really ugly. Apologies for the roller coaster.



* Dial-in roast means when trying a very different method, I'm doing lots of adjustments as the roast proceeds to try and get close to the recommendations. After such a roast I'm more ready to try more planned targets.