Learning to roast in the Neapolitan style - Page 3

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
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happycat

#21: Post by happycat »

Almico wrote:Tried a roast to see if I could get to a fairly high drop temp in a reasonable amount of time while still maintaining declining RoR. Although the roast plan needs tweaking, it seems the answer is yes. At 425* I got an Agtron 45 whole bean and the beans had a subtle gleam.

For the next try I would charge 10* lower, increase to 8"wc at 3:00 instead of creepy up on it. Then drop to 5 or 6 around 6:30 to smooth things out.

Since I was still carrying 15*/min/min at drop, I could go quite a bit hotter sill.

image
Nice work. You even got the magic 25% post 1c while incorporating a nice amount of 2c.

What would make this thread stronger is relating theory to practice. For instance, the Rao curve is meant to preserve sweetness and avoid baking. But what about the other flavours Gary is going for? How does the structure of the roast curve (proportions in each phase) affect acidity etc.

Looking forward to the tasting notes. Not sure how long you would age it first.
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drgary (original poster)
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#22: Post by drgary (original poster) »

I don't have time to dig into it now, but the Roob Hoos book would describe flavors developed by changes in the roast profile.
Gary
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OldmatefromOZ

#23: Post by OldmatefromOZ »

Just my 2 cents, i think declining ROR is great when executed properly with 85+ green, light filter style roast like what ive been tasting with Rao Facsimile, im a huge fan actually and struggle to drink anything else for filter coffee now.

I dont think the roast style works well for roasts near 2nd crack or beyond as the speed required is way too fast, especially if one is going for these comfort Italian style blends.

My approach is to charge as hot as possible with gas off, then hit it hard after 1 min to reach 150C at 4 min. At or just before 150C dip the gas really hard initiating a crash in ROR to 7 - 8C / min.

At 170 bump the gas up slightly so that ROR will be 9 - 10C / min by first crack start. Should give a robust first crack over about 1:30 with ROR dropping to around 6 - 5C / min during crack.

Then as you come out of first crack control the ROR so as to not let it "flick" in uncontrolled manner, but more of a steady rise back to 7 - 8C / min depending on where you want to finish.

So roughly 4min / 150C
4 - 5 min to first crack
3:30 - 4:30 finish depending on how far into 2nd crack.

This emulates alot of the traditional darker Italian roast flavours i have tasted over the years.

Close to what anotherjim discussed here back in 2015 Back to caramel bomb coffees
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EddyQ

#24: Post by EddyQ »

Almico wrote:Tried a roast to see if I could get to a fairly high drop temp in a reasonable amount of time while still maintaining declining RoR. Although the roast plan needs tweaking, it seems the answer is yes. At 425* I got an Agtron 45 whole bean and the beans had a subtle gleam.
Al, I think this roast of yours comes pretty close to my Robusta roast above. My BT probe offset is different than yours, but the difference in temp from FC to drop on both is about 56F. And RoR is declining throughout with roughly a 11min roast time. Perhaps the difference is that mine was 100% robusta and it did not have much for oil on surface. Compared to the Saka, it would be a medium roast. I'll try to post some photos.

I'm hoping this weekend I will have some time to give this another go. But in terms of goals, I feel I still am shooting from the hip. IMO, this accelerated time through development is not getting the heat into the bean enough. The temperature is there, but the time is not. I'm open for suggestions.

Gary is focusing on an 100% Arabica roast and I feel his profile would be much different.
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EddyQ

#25: Post by EddyQ »

IamOiman wrote:Ed if you needed a taste comparison during your testing (or anyone else trying to roast to emulate any of the Saka blends) let me know and I'll send you a sample baggie of 100-200g.
Thanks Ryan! You are welcome to come roast with me and taste yourself. Just don't start talking Italian. :lol:

I still have some Saka frozen in ball jars.
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Almico
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#26: Post by Almico »

happycat wrote:Nice work. You even got the magic 25% post 1c while incorporating a nice amount of 2c.
I don't think there is anything magical about the 20-25% DTR range. I roast my espresso blend and SO sumatra to 30-31% and they are as sweet as can be. I also drop lighter roasts at 15% and they are fully developed and sweet as well. As a matter of fact, I'm finding the middle ground to be fraught with flavor gremlins. This roast has a few of them so far.



Like Gary mentioned, my coffees don't go much darker than just touching 2C. But I want to add a truly dark roast to the mix. I even have a placeholder name for it. My house blend is call "The Duke". Then I have "Duke Dark". I've always fantasized about creating "The Arch Duke" for people that like that "just about to catch fire" flavor profile.

But to maintain sweetness and a touch of acidity, while still supplying all those evil dark notes, I believe I would need to do a post roast blend. I don't think you can get that in a SO or pre-blend roast.

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drgary (original poster)
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#27: Post by drgary (original poster) »

Alan,

You're a pro, I'm not. The direction I would try to take it is to violate the steadily declining RoR and sacrifice some sweetness on the exterior of the bean that goes toward distillates and roastiness while preserving the sweetness on the inside by coaxing RoR into a gentle rise post 1C. Have you tried that method? A melange post-roast blend like you're describing may be even better. However, the Italian blends I've tried all appear to be roasted to the same color, so I don't think they're a melange.

I'm also intrigued by Stephen's approach (OldmatefromOZ) just above. When I can find some time I'm going to try it.
Gary
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EddyQ

#28: Post by EddyQ »

I spent some time just now photographing Saka and my Robusta roast per profile posted.


From these photos, you can see the Saka has more oil than my Robusta (which I thought was about to catch fire!). Also, the beans are a bit darker. That said, I have seen plenty of dark roasts much darker than Saka and more oily. All three of these Saka blends have nice sweetness and only the Top Select can I taste a hint of roastiness (which Gary drops brew temps a bit to eliminate). And there isn't a trace of acidity in either. The Saka with robusta has a long lasting bold flavor.

Other things to observe is how every Saka bean is identically roasted. Big or small, oval or more round they are very closely the same level or roast. The Gran Bar and Crema Bar have robusta, which I assume is the smaller, less oval beans. But Top Select is 100% Arabica and these beans are all small. I think these MUST be pre-blended.
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IamOiman
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#29: Post by IamOiman »

If I remember correctly Saka sources their Robusta primarily from Central Africa (Uganda after asking) and South Asia (India and Indonesia after asking)

Their Arabica is primarily from Honduras, Costa Rica, Colombia, Nicaragua, Mexico, Guatemala, and Ethiopia
-Ryan
Using a spice grinder violates the Geneva Convention
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EddyQ

#30: Post by EddyQ »

That's interesting Ryan. Many posts I find around the internet suggest a high body origin such as Sumatra Giling Basah process or India Monsoon Malabar for dark roasts. Also popular for the base of darker espresso blends are said to be Brazils. But I know of a local roaster that roasts very dark and his Ethiopian SO is very popular. I haven't tried his beans in many years since they truly are very dark, very oily and burnt flavored. But if I remember correctly, they did not lack caramel and some sweet flavors.
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