Learning to roast in the Neapolitan style - Page 2

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
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drgary (original poster)
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#11: Post by drgary (original poster) »

Almico wrote:So what are the goal parameters of this roast?

Total time?
Drop temp?
Time to yellow?
Time to FC?
Temp at FC for calibration purposes?

I plotted a 2C roast in Artisan designer and it seems I can hit 425* (55* over 1C) in 11 minutes and still keep the declining RoR. 2C starts at 418 on my roaster for most coffees.

From my experience, nothing good happens when the RoR goes up after 1C.

This is a screaming roast where 1C starts at 30*/min/min RoR. Might be fun, I'll try one.

image
My roast is a dialing in and prepares me to set such roast parameters the next go-round. Your experience is that nothing good happens when ROR goes up after 1C. The experience of Neal Wilson and his students is different. So that can be a useful comparison for people to try in this thread.
Gary
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Almico
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#12: Post by Almico »

drgary wrote: Your experience is that nothing good happens when ROR goes up after 1C.
It has happened more than I'd like to mention, that I get distracted at the end of a dark roast and neglect to lower my gas enough or most times, turn it off completely. When this happens the RoR climbs quickly and the roast zooms into 2C. I have stopped even bothering to taste these roasts and just dump them out my back door.

Sugars turn more and more bitter during caramelization. When a coffee goes very dark, there is very little "sweetness" left. Someone else might like that roasty, acrid taste. I do not.

I have never tasted Saka coffee, but if someone has some, and a roast meter, I'd love to know the ground/whole bean Agtron numbers.

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drgary (original poster)
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#13: Post by drgary (original poster) »

When you go 10 sec into 2C, you get a spicy flavor and some distillates. You might try tasting it before you throw it out the back door! :wink:

I truly enjoy the flavors in roasts that go into 2C and see the logic in Neal Wilson's approach.
Gary
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Almico
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#14: Post by Almico »

drgary wrote:When you go 10 sec into 2C, you get a spicy flavor and some distillates. You might try tasting it before you throw it out the back door! :wink:
Believe me, I have tasted it. I hate throwing out coffee.

I usually do my dark roasts just to the edge of 2C. At 418* I start a rolling 2C. I usually drop around 415 just when 2C is beginning.

I don't think it's the amount of time into 2C that is the issue for me, but how I get there. It will be interesting to try this new roast profile and go 10, even 20s into 2C but while still on a declining RoR. I know I don't like it when RoR drops to below 10*/min/min and then goes back up again.

Executing this profile on my roaster will not be easy. I will likely have to charge lower to keep dry from happening too soon and then use full gas to the ramp going fast enough. There will be a lot of energy put into those poor beans!

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bean2friends

#15: Post by bean2friends »

I am very interested in this thread. When i first started roasting some years ago on an RK drum, I always roasted pretty dark. At the time that was the coffee I liked. The best example for me was Sweet Maria's French roast blend. I'd roast that 1 minute into second crack. Other coffees I'd roast right up to second crack. Over the years my tastes have changed. I drink more Americanos and enjoy the tastes of coffees that are maybe 30 degrees over the beginning of first crack. So, first crack at 390. Drop the roast at 420. Of course when I first was roasting I had no notion of rate of rise and not much good data. But over time and with my Huky I have changed my roasting profile and my tastes. But, sometimes I miss the good dark roast in a Flat White. But while I used to struggle to get anything but a dark roast, now I have trouble getting that dark. I'm so concerned with a declining ROR and avoiding a blip. I'm thinking what I learn here may help.

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happycat

#16: Post by happycat »

Almico wrote:Believe me, I have tasted it. I hate throwing out coffee.

I usually do my dark roasts just to the edge of 2C. At 418* I start a rolling 2C. I usually drop around 415 just when 2C is beginning.

I don't think it's the amount of time into 2C that is the issue for me, but how I get there. It will be interesting to try this new roast profile and go 10, even 20s into 2C but while still on a declining RoR. I know I don't like it when RoR drops to below 10*/min/min and then goes back up again.

Executing this profile on my roaster will not be easy. I will likely have to charge lower to keep dry from happening too soon and then use full gas to the ramp going fast enough. There will be a lot of energy put into those poor beans!
That's generally how I would approach it (lots of upfront energy to maintain declining ROR). Will be interested to hear your results. You're the expert but my impression was a larger charge of beans helped keep energy going once things turned exothermic.
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drgary (original poster)
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#17: Post by drgary (original poster) »

There are two other things to consider. I brew this kind of roast cooler, at 178F, which is different than the way Ryan Lee does, and he trained at Saka. Also I pull it more ristretto than he does to emphasize sweetness.

Also, Italian coffees like Saka are said to hold their taste fairly long. Do they age it long enough to mellow the bitter flavor notes? Ryan Lee may let his age longer than I do. Once I open the bag after its trek from Italy, it goes into the freezer.

BTW I've tasted one of Alan's darkest roasts, his Sumatra Mutu Batak, and while I liked it, it didn't have the distillates or toasty spice I like in a roast to 2C, and I don't think he takes it that far. To be fair I should probably try his The Duke blend.
Gary
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Almico
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#18: Post by Almico »

That's one of the nice things about darker roasts. They are so soluble that you can use a wide variety of brew temperatures and still get a full extraction. Once in a while I'll make a pour over by blooming with room temperature water and then extracting with 175° to 185° water depending upon what I want to pull out. With light roast coffee it takes everything you got just to get a full extraction.

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Almico
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#19: Post by Almico »

Tried a roast to see if I could get to a fairly high drop temp in a reasonable amount of time while still maintaining declining RoR. Although the roast plan needs tweaking, it seems the answer is yes. At 425* I got an Agtron 45 whole bean and the beans had a subtle gleam.

For the next try I would charge 10* lower, increase to 8"wc at 3:00 instead of creeping up on it. Then drop to 5 or 6 around 6:30 to smooth things out.

Since I was still carrying 15*/min/min at drop, I could go quite a bit hotter sill.


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IamOiman

#20: Post by IamOiman »

This will be the first roasting topic I'll follow. I feel Saka will be very flattered to see people attempt to replicate their roasting profiles! Unfortunately I am not able to do a group buy for the moment and only have done a personal restock of Saka this week. However, if you guys manage to produce a similar roast to Saka you can have something just like their roasts when I am not available for group buys or you do not want at least 6kg of Saka!

Ed if you needed a taste comparison during your testing (or anyone else trying to roast to emulate any of the Saka blends) let me know and I'll send you a sample baggie of 100-200g.
-Ryan
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