IKAWA Home - profiles - Page 32

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
User avatar
drgary
Team HB
Posts: 14369
Joined: 14 years ago

#311: Post by drgary »

DenisEAF wrote: Regarding moisture of the beans (not live moisture) I use a cheap chinese calibrated moisture meter for coffee that I take moisture of the beans, and then i'm trying to land close to that value. For eg last roast is Honduras Parainema Washed has 10.3% moisture, dev:30 sec, weight loss 10.4%. Opened bag today after 13 days: got orange peel/candied orange, red apple, dark choc, cranberry juice.
Denis, do you have a link for a moisture meter of that type? I also wonder whether it's possible to do a DIY version as was done with the DIY color meter.
Gary
LMWDP#308

What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

DenisEAF
Posts: 27
Joined: 3 months ago

#312: Post by DenisEAF »

I got this one but there are plenty to choose from, maybe you even can find a second hand one locally much cheaper.

I had to calibrate mine, as it was reading 1.5% if not more above the actual numbers. Who? by either comparing it with a working unit-more expensive- or by getting 2-3 type of grains from a seller and he provides you some recent moisture measurements.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805916318772.html

I have a lot of free time, and one day I was thinking to put my roaster on a smart digital scale connected to my phone and roast/drop to desired weight loss based on moisture. I didnt do it, idk why.

User avatar
drgary
Team HB
Posts: 14369
Joined: 14 years ago

#313: Post by drgary »

GDM528 wrote:... it does appear that drgary is onto something: starting very gently will significantly change the way moisture is released - across the entire roast. I have more respect for the drying phase in the IKAWA. This has me questioning the magnitude of the first setpoint in my profiles. Some of IKAWA's curated profiles start with a big thermal spike - is that really such a good idea?
It depends. If you look at my drum roast that you emulated, you'll see that I hit it with lots of heat at the start and then start to back off. That would be the equivalent of high inlet temperature. But at that point the greens are so dense and cool that they can take lots of heat. Rob Hoos wrote recently about the danger of tipping throughout a roast. You can even cause tipping during the drying phase by applying too much heat, and that will give you "off" flavors. For some reason, when I exported the graph in Artisan it eliminated some of the elements on the screen. Look at the red step chart on the bottom to see the power settings.



The Hoos article on tipping is purchase only but is quite reasonably priced. That's also where I got the idea of roasting with air set at 100%, which has been working on my perforated drum roaster that also has strong burners.

https://hoos.coffee/shop/p/tipping-and- ... e-roasters

Rob Hoos' Tipping and its Avoidance: a Style Guide for Coffee Roasters (PDF)
Gary
LMWDP#308

What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

GDM528
Posts: 849
Joined: 2 years ago

#314: Post by GDM528 »

Follow-up from the Pink Bourbon I described in post #307 IKAWA Home - profiles In particular, the dark-roast profile.

I compared a natural process Pink Bourbon with a washed version of the same varietal. Both are from Columbia, but from different farms/processors.

Both received the same thermal profile: same inlet settings and I observed the same BT readings with each run. Based on the moisture release data, and what I heard during the roast, the natural process greens reached first-crack 30 seconds after the washed process greens.

Washed process stats:
2:15 Drying
4:00 Browning
1:45 Development
15C/27F Rise after FC

Natural process stats:
2:15 Drying
4:30 Browning
1:15 Development
9C/16F Rise after FC

Just looking at those numbers, I would conclude the washed process greens were roasted darker: longer development time and a higher rise post-FC.

On the first day of the roast, both washed and natural were close to the same exterior color - a subtle sheen I associate with City+/Full-City. Five days post roast however, the natural process greens are oily and darker. Apologies for the photo quality, but in person the difference is quite obvious:



Just looking at the beans, I would conclude the natural process greens were roasted darker - the opposite conclusion from the data.

So, what happened here, which is right: measurement data, or visual appearance?

mgrayson
Supporter ♡
Posts: 649
Joined: 17 years ago

#315: Post by mgrayson »

Someone's going to say it, so ... how do they taste?

(The longer I do this, the less convinced I am that I can tell the difference between sour and bitter. :roll: )

GDM528
Posts: 849
Joined: 2 years ago

#316: Post by GDM528 »

mgrayson wrote:Someone's going to say it, so ... how do they taste?
Interesting question. Can I taste roast level?

Pulled shots of both the washed and natural, 2:1 ratio. "Roastiness' was low compared to non-Bourbon greens, and seemed largely identical between the washed and natural. Remarkably low bitterness despite the 270C inlet setting at the end of the roast, perhaps because of the sweetness? The RoR curvature for the inlet profile was relatively flat, so the temperature was ramping at a pretty decent clip when it dropped.

The fruitiness/sweetness of these greens survived this dark roast profile remarkably well. Apologies nonetheless to all the light roast afficionados that can rightly accuse me of thermal bashing. My espresso machine is my 'hammer', and dark roasts are my 'nail'. That said, I did try pulling a shot of an ultralight roast, and it was way different - but not bad - yet another rabbit hole to explore.

This experiment has delivered me a reminder of how much greens matter. I've observed other batches of certain greens will evolve a full roasting level over the course of a few days post-roast. Is this a natural processing thing, or an IKAWA thing? Do drum roasts of naturals evolve post-roast in a similar way?

This has thrown off my calibration of what 'first crack' means. I used to think of it as a landmark to determine roast levels, but now I'm not so sure.

User avatar
drgary
Team HB
Posts: 14369
Joined: 14 years ago

#317: Post by drgary »

Here's what Denis wrote a few pages back.
DenisEAF wrote:
One year back when I was studying a lot of roasting content (paying for it) most people came to the same conclusion, and you will see this being told by the majority, that on these smaller roasters that do 50-200g of beans, the best results are in the range of 5 to 7 mins. While exploring it and playing with 9-11 min roasts but also faster roasts I found it to be true, as in the roasts that I did super slow even with controlled ror and everything came out to be great 1-2 days after, but got darker in taste and lost the vibrancy 7-10 days after. It was like they became darker, and for my profile it was too dark tasting.

For those who aim to roast lighter, with vibrancy, acidity, and fruity/floral notes I would advice to try to hit FC at 6 to max 7 mins no matter what beans, that seems to be the golden box for ikawa/kl/roest and a few others smaller roasters who have hot air (can penetrate the bean better).

This is a great channel and video explaining it:
video

I installed a temp probe into the inlet flow of a kaffelogic (basically nucleus roaster) and found that the temps while roasting as the same as a ikawa. by the time it hits FC the inlet/hot air temps are in the range of 240+C and going to a max of 250C.

Here is a comparison I did on two roasts, one slow controlled and one pretty fast with FC after 6 mins. The slow roast cupped great immediately after the roasting session and each day passed by it became worst and worst (from a 8.5/10 acidity it went dont to 6).
With more savory notes covering it.

image
Gary
LMWDP#308

What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

Cwilli62
Posts: 217
Joined: 5 years ago

#318: Post by Cwilli62 »

DenisEAF wrote:What grind size you use on the DIY color meter? in general on the KL discord we agreed to grind as fine as possible without having clumps. I ground halfway between espresso and 0 (0.3 on my kinu).

I would call a light roasted one anything between 105 to 130. Around 100 color the espresso starts for me, as in a more soluble coffee that can easily be extracted as espresso and retains some acidity but not tart like, more like baked fruits.

One year back when I was studying a lot of roasting content (paying for it) most people came to the same conclusion, and you will see this being told by the majority, that on these smaller roasters that do 50-200g of beans, the best results are in the range of 5 to 7 mins. While exploring it and playing with 9-11 min roasts but also faster roasts I found it to be true, as in the roasts that I did super slow even with controlled ror and everything came out to be great 1-2 days after, but got darker in taste and lost the vibrancy 7-10 days after. It was like they became darker, and for my profile it was too dark tasting.

For those who aim to roast lighter, with vibrancy, acidity, and fruity/floral notes I would advice to try to hit FC at 6 to max 7 mins no matter what beans, that seems to be the golden box for ikawa/kl/roest and a few others smaller roasters who have hot air (can penetrate the bean better).

This is a great channel and video explaining it:
video

I installed a temp probe into the inlet flow of a kaffelogic (basically nucleus roaster) and found that the temps while roasting as the same as a ikawa. by the time it hits FC the inlet/hot air temps are in the range of 240+C and going to a max of 250C.

Here is a comparison I did on two roasts, one slow controlled and one pretty fast with FC after 6 mins. The slow roast cupped great immediately after the roasting session and each day passed by it became worst and worst (from a 8.5/10 acidity it went dont to 6).
With more savory notes covering it.


image
I'm (still) trying to find a profile (or several basic ones) that I like as a general starting place for most greens and that I can tweak as desired. I like that, based on the video, the Link does this. The approach of, "Here are several profiles for each differing end brew method to start with...and tinker as desired," is appealing. I wish that Ikawa Home did something similar instead of just profiles for coffees that they sell.

I looked in Link Studio and got the basic/generic profile that they start with on their app. Haven't had a chance to roast with it yet but I'm going to give it a shot.

GDM528
Posts: 849
Joined: 2 years ago

#319: Post by GDM528 replying to Cwilli62 »

I take it that IKAWA's "Add your own coffee" option in their app isn't satisfactory - I concur. At least IKAWA does recognize the difference between washed and natural third-party greens.

You got me to download the Link software... it's pretty nice!

Hey IKAWA: do you see what Nucleus is doing? Step up!

Hey Coders: The Link software can import from IKAWA, how about adding an 'export to IKAWA'?

Alas, the vast library of Link profiles don't appear to be available, for either desktop (PC) or mobile (iOS). I presume they know better than to give that away without selling a roaster first - totally fair IMHO.

Cwilli62
Posts: 217
Joined: 5 years ago

#320: Post by Cwilli62 »

Yes. The building of a profile from scratch is something that I'm just not experienced enough to do well. That's why I thought starting with a base and working from there for any given green would be helpful. I'm not saying that I dislike my roasts...some are great, some okay, and some not so good. I still feel like I'm shooting in the dark...taking an Ikawa profile for a specific green and using it for another green, using other (generous) people's profiles from this and other helpful threads, etc.

And I agree...the Link software is pretty nice! I actually downloaded it just to see if it had the base profiles pre-loaded, but yeah...definitely too much to hope for. Lol.

All that being said, between all of the Ikawa threads out there, I'm definitely (SLOWLY) learning.