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Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
ira
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#191: Post by ira »

At this point I have 2 different greens in the freezer and I've lost track of which is which. I've been using the same profile for a few months, I believe for both types and I've been completely happy with the results using that profile with with both coffees. I've got the profile to the place where I just let it run to the end and start cooling on it's own. I can't tell you when it hits first crack or when it yellows, but the coffee is good to me which is all I care about.

GDM528
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#192: Post by GDM528 »

"One profile..."

I may have been brainwashed into reading too much into how a specific coffee green should be roasted. And not just by Ikawa - I've yet to see a bag of commercially roasted coffee with the roasting curve printed on the bag. I suspect mystique can be useful tool for economic purposes.

Yes, I have experimentally confirmed that the shape of the profile does alter the taste - but both versions tasted just fine. I also see postings from people who enjoy their roasted coffee... from a second-hand whirly-pop they bought from a Goodwill store. I've also determined my espresso-making technique is a bigger variable than my roasting: I had a roast profile I didn't like, until someone suggested pulling it as a Ristretto... magic!

For me, one of the strengths of the Ikawa is being able to check the weather forecast for next week and adjust the roast to match the mood. With tweakability in mind, I've been settling into just a couple 'shapes': Stepped, and RoR. The RoR profile wins for new-to-me or limited quantity greens, and Stepped wins to combat boredom with large quantities of the same green.

Milligan
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#193: Post by Milligan »

Fun discussion about espresso here. I recently did an "into 2nd crack" espresso using Sweet Maria's Liquid Amber. It uses some monsooned and robusta coffees. A ristretto shot tasted much better than a traditional 2:1. Like hot cocoa with about 3-4oz of steamed milk.

It is tempting to break out my Pro 100 again and try some of these profiles. I still need to try the inlet control scheme...

Milligan
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#194: Post by Milligan »

Temptation wins. I pulled out the Pro 100 and started messing with it again. One in particular was the Klatch Worka Anaerobic Natural G1. I tried a couple of batches on my Cormorant. The first scorched using my standard recipe. So I lowered my charge temp and eased my initial heat. Still roasty and harsher than I'd like even at a medium/light. The issue seems to be the heavy fermentation process (sugars/carbs coating the beans, the aroma is very strong coming from the greens) along with the large difference in bean size. Curious to know if it was the greens or my gas technique, I ran it through the Ikawa natural process profile. Much better cup of coffee! Meaning... I have to go way less initial heat and charge temp than anything I've roasted on the Cormorant. Possibly even close the diffuser to provide more convection. Quite a great learning experience.

I did a few others with the standard Ikawa profiles. Sweet Maria Kanyon Mountain Taaroo with the Sample Roast 2 (made for high density beans.). Ended up at a 21 roast vision which was darker than I expected. The Klatch anaerobic hit an 18 on roast vision which is a solid medium roast using the Natural process profile, darker than expected. Then things got interesting...

I did the long Ikawa espresso roast profile on a Klatch Organic Guatemalan which is a very nice coffee through the Cormorant to a darker side of medium. It hit a 13 roast vision BUT, I accidentally hit the large button instead of the small discharge button. That means the beans were cooled and then hit with preheat air for probably 45s-1min before I realized. Yeah, they were bad and baked. If you are curious to know what baked beans taste like then do that exercise...

I plan to mess with the RoR profiles and taste them side by side with the Ikawa standard profiles that don't bother with steadily declining RoR to see if I can tell a difference with pour over. I've found it is easier to discern small differences with pour over rather than cupping or espresso (few oils perhaps?) At least for my palate at the moment.

ira
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#195: Post by ira »

If you're using a Pro you might try this profile, it's what I've been using for quite a while and has been working quite well. No promises, but I like it and if nothing else, it's probably a good starting point.

New Ikawa Home Roaster - 100g capacity

mgrayson
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#196: Post by mgrayson replying to ira »

Ah, thanks! The inlet curve is very similar to the "Crown Inlet SR1.4 +DG" (I have no idea what all the numbers and letters mean, but I use it) profile. Theirs rises a bit higher between 3 and 5 minutes, so the exhaust temperature gets higher by the end. It exhibits the same initial drop as well. It's one of the common profiles in the "Ikawa" section of a Royal Coffee analysis.

Milligan
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#197: Post by Milligan »

ira wrote:If you're using a Pro you might try this profile, it's what I've been using for quite a while and has been working quite well. No promises, but I like it and if nothing else, it's probably a good starting point.

New Ikawa Home Roaster - 100g capacity
I'll give that one a shot.

Man, I played with changing over to inlet control tonight and my initial impression is, I love it. The curves are so much smoother and it is very easy to get a smooth RoR (I know some have tested and observed that RoR is not as important with fluid bed.) I long felt the system's exhaust control was too reactionary and would overshoot corrections. Now that I just control the heat input, it is much easier to get a grip on small tweaks and play with the roasts without crossing my fingers that the system doesn't do something wonky and unintentional. It syncs with my brain better than the exhaust automation. It has also been very beneficial to step away from the Ikawa for a bit and put some roast time behind a gas drum. Manual gas drum is sink or swim, no safety net :shock:

I'm eager to stick a BT probe into the bean mass like some of you have to get artisan going with it.

I played with negative RoR at the end of one roast, still smoothly declining but going smoothly negative for a bit before cool down. One was a textbook steadily declining RoR while the other had a high initial RoR. I'm going to taste them tomorrow to see if there is a difference. All hit within 1 point on my Roast Vision, so it will be nearly all profile dependent taste changes.

My goal is to have a few roast levels that mimic the Cormorant so I can benchmark coffees on the Ikawa and try to nail it on the Cormorant. Should be a fun exercise in consistency.

ira
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#198: Post by ira »

I guess then I should try to convert this to inlet to see if I can smooth it out even more. This is one of those times when I want to curse at the APP and wish they would get serious about it.

Ira

Milligan
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#199: Post by Milligan »

I tasted all three and came away with some good info for further testing.

Roast 1: Negative RoR Roast Vision 20
The first attempt at making an intake profile from scratch had me mimicking the ET of a drum roaster. Typically they ramp up to a peak and then taper off as gas is pulled during Maillard. Not a 1:1 association that can be made to the Ikawa as can be seen from the roast. I actually went negative RoR during development which caused for a very interesting tasting! At least it gave me a starting point to tweak from.



Roast 2: Steep initial RoR Roast Vision 22
Licking my wounds from the first attempt, I made some modifications to the curve. I started to think of the inlet temp not as much as an ET but as a heat input with the net input being the delta between the exhaust and inlet. Observing how they play from the first roast helped me see how the exhaust seems to stall out at around 50-60F temp delta. This allowed me to target a finish temp + 60F = finish inlet temp, roughly. I also didn't care for a 4:30min Maillard so I cut the roast by roughly a minute in the middle. This one hit around a 3:30 Malliard which is more in-line with the typical phase times. I also lowered the beginning temp to give me more graph to play with. I "charged" at 230F exhaust temp. I love seeing the mini turning point.


NOTE: CC is not marked correctly here

Roast 3: Smoothing it out Roast Vision 21
I was pretty happy with first crack but wanted to address the fast ramp up to get an overall smoother RoR. I played with giving the inlet temp a slight pause at the beginning of the roast to let the exhaust temp catch up before climbing. This seemed to settle the graph nicely.



Tasting

The roast levels were fairly comparable. They all look the same visually so I'm happy to have the Roast Vision to discern small differences. Roast 1 was 20, Roast 2 was 22, and Roast 3 was 21. All samples were prepared with a V60 using the same technique, water temp, and all within 5s draw down time.

Roast 1: Caramel aroma. Smooth, no bitterness. Slightly sweet. Mostly caramels. Very slight papery note during the aftertaste.

Roast 2: Caramel aroma, faint floral. Snappy acidity, smooth, no bitterness. Sweet. Caramel with a hint of honeysuckle. No lingering aftertaste.

Roast 3: Caramel, sweet aroma, faint floral. Snappy acidity, smoothest, no bitterness. Sweetest and round. Caramel with a hint of honeysuckle. No lingering aftertaste.

Overall: Roast 2 and 3 were noticeably better than Roast 1. Roast 1 lost acidity, sweetness, floral, and added a slight papery note to the end. Quite eye opening. Still a drinkable coffee, but when compared side-by-side, quite a difference. The difference between 2 and 3 was much smaller. So small that it could come down to slight variation in pour over technique. I found myself drawn to 3 a bit more. Mostly for the higher perceived sweetness.

Next up

I think some minor tweaks could be made to smooth it out a bit more. Next I'm going to try to make one for a solid medium roast (15-16 Roast Vision), a Full City (11-12 Roast Vision), and one that explores second crack (8-9 Roast Vision.). I may double back and do a lighter roast too at some point. Eventually I made try to lengthen it out to a gas drum phase/timeline, but will tinker with that later. As always, any tips or commentary would be appreciated.

ira
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#200: Post by ira »

If you post the settings for the last roast, I'll try it tomorrow when I roast again.