Oh and no, the price for the pros I know is like $5000, so I did not even bother to ask.

tiptongrange wrote:Did you get a quote on the price? What's the cost of the Pro V3 and Pro 100?

Another option is the Kaffelogic roaster, they are rumored to be coming out with a 110v/120v version for the US market this fall. Does anyone know how this compares to the Ikawa?

This was one I remember looking into a year or two ago. It's still obviously not available.

Thanks for that detailed commentary Peppersass. I stand corrected on the ability to modify roasts on the fly: neither of the roasters I talked to knew about that.

The cost of the Kaffelogic roaster is $NZ 1400 if purchased directly from them. At the current exchange rate this is about $US 974. However, they only ship to New Zealand addresses. When purchased through an Australian retailer there is another couple of hundred dollars added to the price. I assume it will be similar when they begin selling in the US.

It's been a few years for them but they did manage to release a product for the EU market. I think they're in the final stages of having it certified, so there is hope that the release for the US market is just around the corner.

Peppersass wrote:I
In fact, that's how I've been doing most of my roasts. I roast mainly for espresso, and use a slightly shortened version of Ikawa's Espresso Roast 1 profile (drop shortened from 10:09 to 9:30). I just let it go until 1C, then manually drop after the desired DT. This way, I can manipulate the roast anywhere from light to medium. Most of my roasts drop in 8:00-9:00 minutes, which is why I shortened the profile.
...
The pre-roast editing I've described can be done on the Home version, but it may be trickier because you can only change the inlet temperature and airflow. Also, the Pro lets you edit the profile either by manipulating the graph or my typing new values into a spreadsheet-like text version of the profile. The Home only lets you manipulate the curve. Not a big deal, though some may prefer the text-entry method.

I've owned an Ikawa Home for a couple of years. I bought it to replace a Gene Café that I had never got to grips with. Nearly all the control on a Gene required reacting to the roast as it went along, and I had no idea how to do that. And at ~200g a go, it was expensive and wasteful to experiment. The Ikawa promised complete control by using (and maybe modifying) already created profiles. My learning curve has been better with the Ikawa; at least I've got off the ground, but I do suffer options paralysis. There are so many pre-made curves, and infinite possibilities for adjustment. Without a firm grasp of how variables affect the finished product, it's hard to know what to do to refine one's roasting of particular beans. I do find, however, that the beans sold by Ikawa with accompanying profiles usually suit my tastes.

Peppersass's posts on his progress with his Pro Ikawa have been very illuminating. I would like to try the profile he has been using for Aida Batlle's washed Kilianjaro (mentioned in another post). It's not easy to adapt the Pro profiles for the Home machine: what you need is the inlet settings, which have to be read off a finished curve or taken from the Pro app spreadsheet, and then simplified, because the Home app doesn't allow as many inflection points. The good thing however is that you can download a Pro app, and although you can't control a Home machine with it, you can see the curve and spreadsheet.

If you wouldn't mind, Peppersass (or should I refer to you by your real name?), posting your Kilimanjaro profile here, or sending it to me as a private message, I'd be very grateful. I would just follow you in using the Ikawa Pro library Espresso Roast 1 profile for a model, but for some reason or other, it shows the inlet readings (which are the ones I need) at the same values as the environmental curve ones, and is therefore useless for my purposes. I guess they change when the profile is actually used for a roast.

Matt

tiptongrange wrote:Did you get a quote on the price? What's the cost of the Pro V3 and Pro 100?

The quote I got in late April was $4,270 for the Pro V3 and $5,270 for the Pro 100. That includes all shipping, duties, etc.

walr00s wrote:Mind elaborating on that?

Just based on the video, it looks like the Sandbox requires somewhat more more time and effort. For example, you have to remove the drum to load beans and remove it after the roast to unload. On the latter, I didn't like the idea of handling a hot drum and the delay in cooling the beans (and the fact that the separate cooling option is probably a must.) It looked to me like back-to-back roasts might be more cumbersome, take longer, etc. It also takes longer to preheat than the Ikawa.

One issue for me is that there isn't the breadth and depth of professionally-developed profiles available for the Sandbox that the Ikawa Pro series has. At least not yet.

Note that there isn't a bean probe in the Sandbox drum to sample the bean mass, and there can't be. That, and the highly-perforated, low-mass drum, makes me think the Sandboox actually operates like a fluid-bed roaster, not a drum roaster. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I don't know whether the programming makes use of separate inlet and exhaust probes, like the Ikawa Pro series, or just an inlet sensor like the Ikawa Home. Even if it's an exhaust probe, it looks like it would have to be quite a bit further from the beans than the Ikawa Pro exhaust probe. Don't know how that might affect correlation with actual bean temperature. I have an exhaust probe in my Quest that's far from the beans and doesn't seem to correlate well with the bean temperatures.

All that said, I wouldn't be surprised if the Sandbox provides much better results, ease of use and control than the Gene Cafe.

Peppersass wrote:Just based on the video, it looks like the Sandbox requires somewhat more more time and effort. For example, you have to remove the drum to load beans and remove it after the roast to unload. On the latter, I didn't like the idea of handling a hot drum and the delay in cooling the beans (and the fact that the separate cooling option is probably a must.) It looked to me like back-to-back roasts might be more cumbersome, take longer, etc.

This is definitely my least favorite thing about the workflow. They also included some real crap mitts with the roaster, and I ended up buying a cheap stylus that I keep over there so that I can manipulate my phone with the mitts on. I've had a lot of trouble finding cooking gloves that are both comfortable and dexterous. I've got long, fat fingers and most of the gloves sold on websites don't really fit me.

Peppersass wrote: It also takes longer to preheat than the Ikawa.

I preheat it to the max temp (220C) and that takes 5-6 minutes (ambient temp ~100F in my garage) from cold start. I don't stand there with it, so it isn't terrible as an experience, but yeah, it's about 5-10% of my total time spent roasting. It also behaves differently after a full roast, so I generally start by doing some darker roast decaf and then go into my lighter roasts. Definitely part of my experience that could be improved, though it doesn't bother me a ton.

Peppersass wrote: One issue for me is that there isn't the breadth and depth of professionally-developed profiles available for the Sandbox that the Ikawa Pro series has. At least not yet.

Other than DaveC's videos, I've found virtually no useful profile information. Also, the "premium" profiles don't have control points on them, which means you have to watch them in action to see changes in power, fan and drum. Definitely not an awesome experience. I know Royal has Ikawa profiles for every bean they sell, which seems pretty awesome.

Peppersass wrote: Note that there isn't a bean probe in the Sandbox drum to sample the bean mass, and there can't be. That, and the highly-perforated, low-mass drum, makes me think the Sandboox actually operates like a fluid-bed roaster, not a drum roaster. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I don't know whether the programming makes use of separate inlet and exhaust probes, like the Ikawa Pro series, or just an inlet sensor like the Ikawa Home. Even if it's an exhaust probe, it looks like it would have to be quite a bit further from the beans than the Ikawa Pro exhaust probe. Don't know how that might affect correlation with actual bean temperature. I have an exhaust probe in my Quest that's far from the beans and doesn't seem to correlate well with the bean temperatures.

I'll have to look into how I could add sensors to the system. Overall, the app leaves something to be desired in terms of the information displayed, however they've pushed two updates since I purchased it, so I do think it's possible the software will get to a much nicer place in terms of experience. I kinda also hate that I am bound to their app for viewing and controlling my roast.

Peppersass wrote:All that said, I wouldn't be surprised if the Sandbox provides much better results, ease of use and control than the Gene Cafe.

As a newbie, I'd say my experience with it has been pretty good overall. I haven't had to mod it in any way and I was able to reproduce (as far as my palate can tell) my local shops' Costa Rican Natural, very fruit forward, light roast in a couple of hours of work (spread over days of course) tuning and testing a profile. That shop is run by 2 roasters with ~35 years of coffee roasting experience using a Dietrich. Obviously they do a much better job than I will of finding an optimum roast without a concrete target to aim at, but a lot of that is roasting expertise that I don't have.

mathof wrote: If you wouldn't mind, Peppersass (or should I refer to you by your real name?), posting your Kilimanjaro profile here, or sending it to me as a private message, I'd be very grateful. I would just follow you in using the Ikawa Pro library Espresso Roast 1 profile for a model, but for some reason or other, it shows the inlet readings (which are the ones I need) at the same values as the environmental curve ones, and is therefore useless for my purposes. I guess they change when the profile is actually used for a roast.

Yes, that's right. The Pro adjusts the inlet temperature on the fly to achieve the programmed exhaust temperature, so there are no inlet temperatures needed in the profile. However, the roast log records the actual inlet and exhaust temperatures that occurred.

Either name is fine. Below is a screen capture of a roast log for the Aida Batlle's Finca Kilimanjaro Washed. I always mark CC at 300F and I mark 1C when I hear the very first pop. For this roast, I dropped (initiated cooling) at 1:00 past 1C. That was 11.9% DTR, which seems quite low, but I've found that measure not to be as useful or accurate as DT. The roast came out light (Agtron Gourmet 99), as expected. I did another roast to 1:30 past 1C and it came out medium-light (Agtron 82.) Both roasts tasted great as espresso. Haven't tried them brewed. Next time I roast this bean I'm going to try dropping at 1:15 to see if the middle ground is even better. PM me with your email if you'd like a copy of the roast CSV file, which contains a table of time, exhaust temp, inlet temp and some other parameters. I think that might be easier to use than the graph for constructing a profile on your Ikawa Home.

Does the Ikawa home let you export a CSV file of the profile? That command is near the bottom of the roast log in the Pro app.

happycat wrote:Roasting with Quest in condo or apt for 7 years. Half pound capacity. Open door to balcony, point exhaust at gap, roast.

I'm not sure why there woukd be a lot of smoke. Mine is mostly steam I think.

Thanks, I already smoke my apartment pretty badly with the Quest, so I think I am gonna do a smaller roaster for now and get something like a Quest later, when I have proper outdoor or shed/garage space.

Peppersass wrote:The quote I got in late April was $4,270 for the Pro V3 and $5,270 for the Pro 100. That includes all shipping, duties, etc.

Thanks, I wonder what justifies the $1000 difference?