Buyers Remorse - Kaleido M10 Astringent Roasts

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
Agtron70
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#1: Post by Agtron70 »

I have a Kaffelogic Nano 7. The Nano 7 produces fantastic roasts.

The Nano 7's only failing is its' small batch size.

In order to roast more beans per batch, I have taken delivery of a Kaleido M10.

The Kaleido roasts larger batches with ease, however the coffee roasted is without fail astringent.

The degree of astringency varies. In the situation of lowest astringency, it is not mouth puckering, but it is immediately apparent.

The astringency from the beans I roast in the Kaleido M10 destroys the coffee experience.

I've tried short development (15%), long development (30%), long roasts (12:30), short roasts (6:30), baking the roasts, etc.

No matter what bean or how the roast profile is altered the resulting cups from the Kaleido M10 remain astringent.

The same beans in the Kaffelogic Nano 7 produce amazing cups.

The beans are roasted to similar levels on both the Kaffelogic and the Kaleido as measured by my Difluid Omni roast analyzer - between an Agtron 70 and 74.

The beans also have very similar weight loss during roasting.

The beans look and weigh similar, but the cups taste worlds apart.

Lots of great beans have gone in the bin.

This has become a very frustrating and expensive experience.

I am presuming that not every owner of a Kaleido M10 has this problem and in fact I believe that this must be a rare occurrence, otherwise I would have different search results from my research.

If you have a Kaleido M10 and you have experienced a similar situation please advise how you eliminated astringency due to roasting.

Thank you.

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drgary
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#2: Post by drgary »

I don't have a Kaleido but wonder if you are charging too cool.
Gary
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What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

mgrayson
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#3: Post by mgrayson replying to drgary »

Gary,

I have astringency problems as well. Could you expand on this? It's on an Ikawa, so I'm not sure how important charge temperature is, or what contributes to astringency in a roast. I'd love to get rid of it!

Matt

Rytopa
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#4: Post by Rytopa »

What is your roast profile like? I have used machines from Kaleido and seldom get the astringency you describe.

Milligan
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#5: Post by Milligan »

mgrayson wrote:Gary,

I have astringency problems as well. Could you expand on this? It's on an Ikawa, so I'm not sure how important charge temperature is, or what contributes to astringency in a roast. I'd love to get rid of it!

Matt
Not Gary, but in my experience a lower TP (goes hand in hand with a lower charge temp) can mean a faster and higher initial RoR peak. This can initiate tipping in the beans. Hoos did a presentation/booklet on tipping and intake temp could be a concern as well. Most assume drying phase doesn't matter as much as long as we get to dry end by 4-5mins we should be fine, but that isn't always true. We need a quality dry that doesn't introduce roast defects and sets up the momentum for the rest of the roast. Depending on the machine we may need a soak, low initial gas, lower air flow, etc. High initial air flow with high heat and low charge temp can be a recipe for tipping in my experience.

Some graphs could help diagnose the issue.

Agtron70 (original poster)
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#6: Post by Agtron70 (original poster) »

In reply to Rytopa -

I have tried a numerous profiles. My FC is consistently at about 178-180C - A temperature offset issue with my new M10 of about 20C. My charge has varied from 160-180C. Development has varied from 15-30%. Roast duration from 6:30 -12:30. A typical profile is a charge at a temp of FC-15C or 165C, 9-12:00 roast time, 20% +/- total of development, terminal BT of roast is about 197-199C, with 20C offset that is about 217-219C adjusted BT temp.

Can you tell me what your typical roast profile looks like?

Splatcat
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#7: Post by Splatcat »

Here's a podcast with Hoos talking g about Tipping. Great Monday listen.

mgrayson
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#8: Post by mgrayson »

Milligan wrote:Not Gary, but in my experience a lower TP (goes hand in hand with a lower charge temp) can mean a faster and higher initial RoR peak. This can initiate tipping in the beans. Hoos did a presentation/booklet on tipping and intake temp could be a concern as well. Most assume drying phase doesn't matter as much as long as we get to dry end by 4-5mins we should be fine, but that isn't always true. We need a quality dry that doesn't introduce roast defects and sets up the momentum for the rest of the roast. Depending on the machine we may need a soak, low initial gas, lower air flow, etc. High initial air flow with high heat and low charge temp can be a recipe for tipping in my experience.

Some graphs could help diagnose the issue.
I've been dropping at about 125°C. Beans get to about 100°C before going back up. I'll try raising it and programming a drop so that the inlet temperature doesn't go crazy.

Edit: I just read his little book and it seems I want to keep the air temperature from going too high too quickly. I'll consult my problematic roasts...

Thanks,

Matt

mgrayson
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#9: Post by mgrayson »

Here's my worst recent roast. Papua New Guinea Organic Timuza A. Not sure why it was undrinkable. Astringency galore!

Oh, ignore the CC time and temperature. I wasn't paying attention.

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drgary
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#10: Post by drgary »

Great answers!

I noticed that when I charged too cool I got astringent roasts. I'm guessing that I didn't develop the inside of the bean enough while the outside got to target temperature for the drop. It would be especially nasty if I took the roast to a medium level. That's my theory of how I get astringency anyway.

This was done in a cool room with ambient temperature of about 50°F and on a drum roaster. When I raised the charge temperature the astringency disappeared.

To the OP, I think the answers overall are that the problem isn't with your roaster but with having discovered an unfortunate hitch with your profiles on it.
Gary
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What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!