Auto Vacuum Canister (Kickstarter)

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
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CarefreeBuzzBuzz

#1: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

Fellow roasters does this interest you for your home roasted beans? Why or why not. At the kickoff price it still twice the price of the Airscape, but the digital version seems interesting.

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cafeIKE
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#2: Post by cafeIKE »

Pointless.

Coffee decays from other than oxygen.

Lower temperature, i.e. freezing, slows decay.

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Jeff
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#3: Post by Jeff »

Lots of marketing, some of which shows a lack of concern for accuracy, such as "automatically extract all the air". That's provably a false claim (nothing pulls a full vacuum). I find claims of 3-second evacuation time with a battery powered device to anywhere near a full vacuum inconsistent. "The lid won't open when it's vacuum pressured because of our unique science and technology." Um, yeah, I didn't think that pressure differential was unique science and technology.

At least the Atmos is forthcoming that it pulls about 1/3 of a vacuum and you can make decisions based on that.

BlueWater

#4: Post by BlueWater »

Jeff hit the main points of my objections. Overall, it looks like a solution in search of a problem-I don't have anything that I think needs room temp vacuum storage before I can consume all of it. Do sugar cubes really go bad? And another battery for me to deal with?

For coffee, I will either put in a reusable vacuum bag and freeze or put it in the coffee freshness system. I have no experimental evidence, but for items with volatile components, like coffee, I worry that repeated vacuum exposure will cause those to be lost more quickly than using something like an Airscape.

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JohnB.
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#5: Post by JohnB. »

Right now for less then the $79 list price for one 1.8ltr AVC unit you can buy a Foodsaver FM2000 vac sealer. Add the jar sealer attachment, pick up a case of canning jars & you are way ahead of what this unit offers.
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littlenut

#6: Post by littlenut »

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:Fellow roasters does this interest you for your home roasted beans? Why or why not. At the kickoff price it still twice the price of the Airscape, but the digital version seems interesting.

Kickstarter Project Link


Note to Moderators - If you want to move this please leave a link back in this forum. I am more interested in what home roasters think.
My $0.02....

I homeroast to always have freshly roasted coffee. I roast coffee every 2-3 weeks to do this and it meets my requirements. (I assume some people prefer roasted coffee at less than a week old, but that is not to my taste.) If the coffee was "too old" I would simply roast more often and if this would be a problem, I would buy a larger roaster. The issue for me and I assume other homeroasters is how to keep the green coffee "fresh". I have not tried it, but I assume that involves vacuum packing and putting it in a freezer. (Past this I assume we're getting into Argon or some other inert gas.) Under those circumstances the self evacuating canisters couldn't be used in a freezer. Freezing green coffee would involve at a minimum a foodsaver, jar attachment, and some canning jars.

For my uses I have been toying w/ the idea of purchasing a small chest freezer and a chamber sealer. The hurdle for me ATM is SWMBO. I mentioned just the chamber sealer portion in passing and the boss was not very supportive. I just have to work on selling her on what we can pick up at Costco/Sam's and save money... TBH I think the sell job will have to include the "Christmas present for me"...

Anywhoo....HTH, -LN

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JB90068
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#7: Post by JB90068 »

I'll jump in with my opinions. I own a pair of Airscapes. I also own a few dozen Craig Lyn bean cellars. I'm also waiting for some Weber glass bean cellars.

The downside of using something like the vacuum canisters for frequent use, is that each time you open the canister as per the video, you introduce fresh air which is the problem. The bean vaults are nice since they have the one way valve to allow the fresh beans to off gas and allow for individual doses. I typically weigh out a pound at a time for my vaults. 20 or so containers go into the freezer and 20 or so containers are stored at room temp in a cupboard. I keep a 1/2 lb of decaf in one of the Airscapes since I'm still experimenting with decaf. The other Airscape sits unused...

If an engineer really wanted to get serious about designing a canister to hold the beans for a long time, then they would design a canister that would replace the oxygen with nitrogen. The air we breath at sea level has roughly 21% oxygen in it. Fruit growers learned a long time ago that they can pick their fruit green, place them in large refrigerated warehouses that hold the fruit just above freezing with about 98% nitrogen content.These warehouses also control humidity. This effectively keeps the fruit from ripening and off gassing C02. Before they need to ship the fruit, they pull it and let it ripen with fresh air. Not being an engineer or a fruit grower, I would think this technique could be applied to coffee. At what cost to make it "practical" would be anyones guess, but using a small nitrogen cylinder that can be refilled at a welding supply company wouldn't be too over the top. Considering what some of us have invested into our grinders, espresso machine(s), roasters etc... it might not be much of an add on. After all how do you price the perfect tasting shot?

My advice to those of you who are engineers - offer at least two or three sizes of canisters - 1lb, 1 kilo and 2 kilo. Make them so they can easily fit in a refrigerator or freezer and have a quick disconnect from the hose going to the nitrogen tank.
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TomC
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#8: Post by TomC »

JB90068 wrote:If an engineer really wanted to get serious about designing a canister to hold the beans for a long time, then they would design a canister that would replace the oxygen with nitrogen.

This already exists, but all the componnents to make it actually do what we're looking for is expensive.

http://www.coffeefreshness.com/#anch_page1

They went with CO2, because it doubles the options for home users to pick up the soda chargers at most stores for the convenience.
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JB90068
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#9: Post by JB90068 »

TomC wrote: They went with CO2, because it doubles the options for home users to pick up the soda chargers at most stores for the convenience.
Interesting and thanks for posting this. I'm a bit confused though. I always thought that excess CO2 is bad for freshness so this leaves me wondering why they would add CO2 as a replacement gas other than it is easily obtained. Hopefully someone can chime in here.

I found this article about nitrogen flushing for packaging roasted beans. Thoughts?
https://coffeetec.com/blogs/news/nitrog ... ther-facts
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Jeff
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#10: Post by Jeff »

Remember that what you can market and sell is not always anywhere near "scientifically optimal" for the task.

When I was considering changing from my 0.9 L Oxo containers to something "more modern", one of the things I did was hypothesize that the rate of loss of freshness was closely related to the amount of oxygen that the beans interact with (for a given temperature, light, ...).

My usual "bag" of beans is around 0.9 L, so the Atmos 0.7 L is too small. The next size up is 1.2 L

A random packing of spheres is around 64%, from what I've read. For simplicity, call it 2/3 beans, 1/3 interstitial space.

0.9 L of beans in an 0.9 L container then has around 0.3 L of air to interact with

0.9 L of beans in a 1.2 L container then has around 0.6 L of air to interact with. An Atmos can remove 1/3 of that, so you'd be at 0.4 L.

(I'll spare the calculations at partial fill, but they're pretty easy to work out.)

This is arguably very hand-wavy, but it was enough to convince me that, for my week's supply (around 250 g), mild pressure reduction probably wasn't worth spending around $75 on compared to just using a tight-fitting container or bag.

Long-term storage I do with 98% vacuum, tightly bagged, in the freezer. I suspect that the suggestions to use full, "Mason" jars or Weck containers is just as good as the bags, at the same level of vacuum.