Alternative roast profile experiments. - Page 2

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
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bradm
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#11: Post by bradm »

Almico wrote:This profile should make darker roasts easier, since the RoR is not falling as much. It was always tricky with dark roasts, keeping the temp high enough to touch 2C without flicking or baking.
Sure would! I think it is much more difficult to manage a linearly declining RoR when you're trying to edge up to 2C than for a light roast. Following this one intently. Please continue!

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Almico (original poster)
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#12: Post by Almico (original poster) »

The dark side. I did a decaf roast to get the roaster warmed up.



I started the roast with 42% gas and 50% air. I don't want to mess with air while doing this experiment so the air stays constant. I dropped to 8.3% about a minute before DE, then bumped the heat to 12.5% when RoR reached 15*/min. I maintained 15*/min until 1C when the RoR dipped and then leveled off again. No heat changes during this phase. I wanted to see what the coffee would do on its own. When the RoR stopped declining, I reduced the heat again to prevent a flick. It stretched out nicely until 400*, my normal drop point for this coffee. I haven't tasted it, cuz I don't drink decaf. :P

Then I tried my espresso blend.I wanted to drop hotter at 415*, so I stopped the post dry RoR decline at 17-18*/min instead of 15. I got a similar 1C dip, but reducing the heat to 8.3% wasn't enough and I got a little flick. Next time I'll try going straight to 4% and see what happens.



This is my usual espresso roast:



And this is the overlay:



Interesting takeaways: Both espresso roasts have similar dry times, similar DTR % and the same drop temp. Both measure 51/56 Agtron**. The main difference is in the Maillard phase.

I just had an Americano while playing Go with my son (not working tomorrow) and it was unbelievably good. I was just going to take a sip, but I ended up drinking half the cup. It was so good, it was hard dumping the rest in the sink. And it was literally still warm from the cooling bin to boot! Tomorrow morning I'll make a straight espresso and see what that does, but I have high hopes.

Things to try next: eliminate the flick and see if there is an improvement. Although this roast was not roasty at all.

Next, next: try a gas dip to level out the post 1C dip and see what happens. I have a feeling that is the ticket.


** This is why I don't use AUC, Mike. My usual espresso roast is AUC 246, the new one is AUC 288 and the Agtron roast level is the same. AUC is just a straight area calculation of x-axis * y-axis. But the x axis of temperature is a far more significant influence on roast level than the y axis of time.

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Marcelnl
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#13: Post by Marcelnl »

I did try a gas dip; see if you spot it :D



I had a flame out, gas tank was empty without me seeing it even when I knew it was running on fumes. It will be an interesting experiment taste wise, to see what comes out of this. Coffee smells promising already
(not comparing to your experiment in any way, I just think this batch was not as botched as I was initially thinking)
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Almico (original poster)
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#14: Post by Almico (original poster) »

I had a nice espresso this morning and tried two more roasts, both on the darker side. I tried to flatten the post 1C dip. Still a work in progress, but now I have two roasts templates to guide the next attempts.

A Brazil:



And a very crashy Sumatra:



The Sumatra was OK in the cup. Tomorrow will tell more. The Brazil is wonderful, but might get even better.

Typically, I have to crank the heat to 100% on the Sumatra to stop the crash. I tried less with this new profile, but I might need to go to 80% next time. This coffee dies if allowed to crash.

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CarefreeBuzzBuzz
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#15: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

Almico wrote:
** This is why I don't use AUC, Mike. My usual espresso roast is AUC 246, the new one is AUC 288 and the Agtron roast level is the same. AUC is just a straight area calculation of x-axis * y-axis. But the x axis of temperature is a far more significant influence on roast level than the y axis of time.
Thank you - that is exactly what I was trying to discern by asking the question, and you made it really clear. Thanks.
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devlin2427
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#16: Post by devlin2427 »

The title of the topic should be alternative baking experiments, tbh....

I've tried something similar and pretty much all of them came out baked, ashy and, in general, below average.

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Almico (original poster)
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#17: Post by Almico (original poster) replying to devlin2427 »

Maybe you just didn't do it right. Why don't you post the profiles and we'll have a look?


I'm doing an A/B of my espresso blend this morning, making an Americano of each. After a few days rest, my usual roast has simmered down. The new profile doesn't really have to.

It's still a very tough call. The usual roast has more to it by a nose. By "more to it" I mean it has "all the colors of the rainbow". The new profile has most of the good colors, but is missing one. It doesn't taste "as complete". But all the sweetness is there. All the dynamics are there. Neither are roasty, by dark(er) roast standards. Neither have a "bite". It's frustrating when each cup, as I taste it, is "the better one".

Yesterday I was all set to change my entire production to this new profile, today I'm not sure. I need to go back to try light roasts again. I can't get away from how much both of my Naturals, an Ethiopia and Panama, just absolutely popped. The kind of pop that stops a customer in their tracks while walking past my bar when I'm grinding them.

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Marcelnl
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#18: Post by Marcelnl »

perhaps it's a matter of preference, for some coffee's complexity may win the game for most for other coffees and drinkers sweetness may be king?

I envision that the different profiles cause a difference in trading in simple(r) sugars for more complex compounds. leave more sweetness would make me think less complexity is to be expected.

You could just keep the 'special' profile for special purposes.
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Beeroclock
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#19: Post by Beeroclock »

The new profile has you hitting FC crack a good few degrees higher, do you notice a difference in the length/intensity of FC - I wonder whether this is giving you that extra "pop" with the Ethiopian especially.

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Almico (original poster)
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#20: Post by Almico (original poster) replying to Beeroclock »

Not sure what you mean. I have FC auto-programmed and it occurs at 370* every time.

As far as the Ethiopia, I would have thought that the extended Maillard would have burnt out the acidity and fruit. If anything, it magnified it. It's been a few days since that roast and the last time I tried it. I'm going to try some right now...


...still poppin'.