Air Popcorn Popper Roast Profiles - Page 2

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
mpdeem (original poster)
Team HB

#11: Post by mpdeem (original poster) »

Milligan wrote:A full blown popper build would be fun. I fear I'd end up with $400 worth of phidgets, thermocouples, PIDs, and misc electronics hanging off of a $20 popper :mrgreen:

I'm interested to see graphs and what folks do to these poppers to make them more roast friendly.
This will probably be me :wink:

pivoc

#12: Post by pivoc »

Hi,
what is a proper drying time for air poppers? I have seen many drum roasters aiming for about 4-5 minutes dry time. But popper roasters are quicker and dries the beans more efficiently.
I would like to hear what dry times you are using.

mpdeem (original poster)
Team HB

#13: Post by mpdeem (original poster) »

NOTE: THIS PROFILE IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A TEMPLATED OR EVEN AN EXAMPLE OF HOW TO ROAST. RATHER IT IS SIMPLY A SLIGHTLY MODFIED VERSION OF THE ROAST PROFILE I LEARNED TO ROAST ON OVER 11 YEARS AGO. IT IS TO SAY THE LEAST, OUTDATED AND PROBABLY QUITE FLAWED. HAVING BEEN AWAY FROM COFFEE FORUMS AND NOT FOCUSING ON DEVELOPING MY ROASTING SKILLS, MY BASIC ROAST PROFILE REMAINS FROZEN IN TIME SO TO SPEAK. IT IS HEREBY PROVIDED ONLY TO GIVE CONTEXT AS TO WHERE I AM NOW IN TERMS OF ROASTING.

EDITED YET AGAIN TO REFLECT MY DECISION TO GO BACK TO MY FORMER ROAST PROFILE WITH LOWER CHARGE TEMP & LOWER TEMPS DURING DRYING & YELLOWING PHASE.

After over a week of experiments - attempting to lower the temp range during maillard as well as lower peak temperature thru higher charge temp & higher temp range during drying & yellowing phase - I am reverting back to my former roast profile. I swear this is the last change. I am done tinkering for a while or at least until I upgrade my popper with temp probes, a PID or Variac, and Artisan.

FORMER ROAST PROFILE - USED LAST 2-3 YEARS.HIGHER TEMPS BECAUSE REPLACEMENT POPPER HAD STRONGER FAN
time temp
(min/sec) (F)

225-250 charge (preheating chamber)
:30 190 drying green phase
1:00 250
1:30 220 1st rest to slow/delay heat ramp -stop heat for 30 seconds while fan runs temp stalls & drops back a little
2:00 240
2:30 250
3:00 300-315 yellowing phase
3:30 325 2nd rest to slow/delay heat ramp -stop heat for 30 seconds while fan runs temp stalls & drops back a little
4:00 318-300
4:30 280-290
5:00 300
5:30 325 browning roast developement phase
6:00 340-350
6:30 360-375
7:10-20 400 1st Crack
7:30 417-24 maillard phase
8:00 425
8:18-30 430-<450 Peak Temperature
430-440
440-<450
9:03-08 425+-
9:30 415-420
9:30-40 418-420 end roast
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Forum member minus1psi suggested referring to the top/highest roast temperature as Peak Temperature. I have ammended my post to reflect this excellent suggestion.

After some experiments and tinkering I have amended my roast profile to the following profile below. The primary changes being:

-higher drying & yellowing phase temps (275 F-300 F)
-slightly higher temp & heat rise at 6-6:30 minute, approaching 1st Crack
-decreased 1st Crack & maillard phase temps & gentler heat rise (staying mostly in 400-418 F,reaching a Peak Temperature of 425 F for about a minute
-slightly shorter roast, ending 13-15 seconds earlier

By increasing charge temp as well increasing overall drying & yellowing temp range, I was able to the keep temp range lower during maillard phase without risk of underdeveloped vegetal flavors. Also able to lower the Peak Temperature to 425 F. Formerly if I went below a Peak Temperature of 448-450, I would get slightly vegetal flavors emerging.
Basically a higher charge temp combined with hotter temps during drying & yellowing phases allowed me to lower mallard temps as well asPeak Temperature

NOTE: Peak Temperature reached plus length of time heavily influences roast level. For example a Peak Temperature of 425 F for even 5-10 seconds will result in a City + level roast. Thanks to minus1psi for the suggestion of the term Peak Temperature to refer to the highest-top roast temperature.

For reasons that are too complicated to succinctly describe here, I found my roasts slowly becoming darker over the last 2-3 years. In part this was due to the stronger fans of two poppers purchased (used - my model popper no longer being manufactured). What started out as a temporary modification in roast profile -to accommodate a stronger fan resulting in slightly cooler chamber temps - over time became a new standard.

This time period also saw some unexpected and major changes in my endocrine health due to hormonal changes during menopause resulting in a sudden change in the amount of caffeine I could tolerate. Suffices to say my adrenal glands have become overly sensitive in part due to elevated gonad tropic hormones and other menopause changes. I have had to reduce my thyroid medication for example, because now I can barely tolerate even a fraction of my former dose. Basically I have become hypersensitive to things formerly well tolerated.

With the possibility of having to give up I no longer focused on roasting and brewing skills. Instead I started figuring out how to keep enjoying coffee in any shape or form, This saw more decaf coffees - which resulted in further alterations to my roast profile mostly in the form of lower charge temps and gentler lower heat rise during drying & yellowing phases.

More importantly my focus shifted away from further developing my roasting skills as I was not even sure if coffee would remain a part of my lifestyle. For example, I had to give up tea because it now over stimulates my adrenal glands. Hard to describe without going into far too much detail...but basically developed severe neuroendocrine & autonomic dysfunction in a matter of only a few years.

So it may sound odd that I am now only noticing that my roasts have become darker. Given the rather tumultuous nature of the last few years, I was on auto pilot when roasting - more concerned with the prospect of being forced to give up coffee. Now that things have settled down that I am starting to notice the changes in roast style that have occured during the last few years ;)


After some recent tinkering and experimenting I adapted the following profile using a higher charge temp & higher temp range during drying & yellowing phases combined with attempts to do lower temps during the maillard phase:
time temp (F)

CHARGE 300
:30 180-250 larger volume = lower temp dip
1:10 300 DO NOT GO BELOW~215-218 OR SO OTHERWISE RISK OF UNDERROASTED FLAVORS & TOO MUCH CAFFEINIE
1:40 260-275 230 if less beans
2:00 275
2:30 280-290
3:00 300-315
3:30 325
4:00 325-318
4:30 290-300
5:00 300-315
5:30 325-340
6:00 350-360
6:30 375
6:45 380-390
7:10-7:30 400 1st CRACK OK if gentle soft snaps not vigerous
7:30-8:00 405-420
8:00-8:15 425=+ average Peak Temperature of 425 may go very briefly above 425-435 if desired but only 1-2 seconds otherwise too dark
8:15-8:50 425-425
9:00 418 back to 418-405 range
9:17-18 400-415
------------------------
Air circulation provided by fan but I use a large metal spoon to stir (can't fit a wooden spoon in the chamber) to increase circulation and avoid tipping. I stir pretty much most of the roast until just before 1st Crack around 6 minutes or so..at which time beans have finally lost enough moisture not to need help. You may not need to stir...but I do since I load my chamber to max capacity.

Temperatures are very loose & approximate as I am using a kitchen dial mounted from the ise of the roast chamber.

Phases are approximate - title reflect developing bean color change.

There are two rests where heat is turned off for ~30 seconds, allowing temp to stall & even drop a little. This helps slow down roast and avoid reaching 1st Crack too soon. NOTE: My popper has an on/off heat switch which has been seperated from the fan, thus enabling me to turn off the heat while leving the fan running and air circulating.

During the Roast there are many 1-2 second rests when heat turned off to help modulate and adjust temperature.

I do not have the ability to fine tune temperature.

I do not have the ability to adjust fan speed. This particular PopperyI that I bought on ebay has slightly more powerful fan than previous Poppery's owned by me, thus I have had to raise the temperatures in roast level Peak Temperature..basically ending up going a little darker than I normally would to compensate for the increased air circulation.

Raw bean volume...I find myself increasing temps a degree or two when reducing bean volume by 1 oz (visual measurement NOT weight). More beans means more heat build up via thermal mass ect. ect. Again you will just have to play around and find out what works for your specific situation.

Given the differences in temperature mointering alone -never mind popper design - please take the above as merely a rough template. You may end up with a completely different profile according to your specific popper and preferances. Please feel free to share your expierences and profiles.

Terminology may be outdated and now even considered incorrect. I started roasting over 11 years ago before roast monitering/profiling and codification of knowledge and terms became more precise. Having said that, going forward if someone wants to get us all speaking proper roast langauge - I am all for it.
------------------------

mpdeem (original poster)
Team HB

#14: Post by mpdeem (original poster) »

Forgive the dorkly layout. Hopefully getting Artisan in a month or two..just need to get temp mointering in place. In the mean time I will try charting out some of my roasts...already recorded in Excel so should be a cinch to do a chart...but the raw data remains in an uber long awkward colum format until I think of something better.

pcofftenyo
Supporter ♡

#15: Post by pcofftenyo »

mpdeem wrote:Thanks for the links!!! Greatly appreciated as I am about to get those very upgrade. Sounds like you have played around with poppers....if that is the case would love to hear your expierences.
Happy to share, FWIW.

I am not as good a roaster on my Popper as a Roaster (PR now for short) as my Huky or Bullet, but good enough to get a good-enough sample roast at the moment. Am hoping the telemetry will provide the info to take it up a notch.

Also, its important for me to be able to roast 50 gram samples pretty consistently. If I end up needing the Ikawa to achieve that end I'll do it, but I'd rather not.

And regarding a previous comment about differences in machines, yes, there are bound to be. Roasting for me has been about learning machine and bean and their interaction.

pcofftenyo
Supporter ♡

#16: Post by pcofftenyo »

pivoc wrote:Hi,
what is a proper drying time for air poppers? I have seen many drum roasters aiming for about 4-5 minutes dry time. But popper roasters are quicker and dries the beans more efficiently.
I would like to hear what dry times you are using.
My normal times and ratios are 2:30 to yellow (48%), Malliard 33%, 1C 19%. These ratios are pretty similar to what I get on my Huky although the times are much shorter.

I did find out that the PAAR (popper as a roaster) decided to cut heat during 1C without my intervention so I'm going to have to figure out if that is a time or temp issue. Roasting indoors, first batch, 2 min medium preheat, 65F.

buckersss
Supporter ♡

#17: Post by buckersss »

pcofftenyo wrote:I bought one of those Popper as a Roaster devices as a sample roaster as it was pretty challenging on my Huky.

Third/current iteration is using a wall-mounted watt-meter. Found that the dial lacks actual fine tuning ability so power usage increases dramatically when I thought it might be more linear.

Upcoming iteration will be the implementation of a thermocouple and Artisan.

Will update.
If you run the popper attached to a variac you should be able to do some tuning and achieve different heat levels.

IE drop voltage to ~110 and slowly rise up to ~120. Watch for temperature change (without beans) before moving to next dial notch. Move dial up a notch and then drop voltage down again and repeat. When temps are charted you should be able to identify the redundant, or missing, points and adjust the voltage window as required.

randytsuch

#18: Post by randytsuch »

I have not used this setup in forever, but maybe this will help someone

https://randytsuchroasterpid.blogspot.c ... art-1.html

Kind of describes how I put together a controllable roaster with a Popcorn Pumper (same guts as a Poppery), a PID, Solid State Relay and a couple of thermocouples.

Some additional info here, for refined version
https://randytsuchroasterpid.blogspot.c ... chive.html

In this setup, I measured ET and BT. PID was controlled with ET, then I would monitor BT as I roasted.
Eventually I moved to a drum roaster with larger capacity, then I retired :D

Randy

mpdeem (original poster)
Team HB

#19: Post by mpdeem (original poster) »

randytsuch wrote: Kind of describes how I put together a controllable roaster with a Popcorn Pumper (same guts as a Poppery), a PID, Solid State Relay and a couple of thermocouples.
Randy
Thanks for the links. More inspiration for future upgrades.

I am not as familiar with the Popcorn Pumper...do you know what the watts/power is? I am curious as by your description the Pumper might be a good substitute for a Popper I since the latter have become harder to come by..and more expensive as sellers realize they make great coffee roasters.

randytsuch

#20: Post by randytsuch replying to mpdeem »

Not sure about the watts. I remember way back when I was building this, I found claims that the original Pumper and the well regarded original Poppery shared the same guts. I believed it and got a Pumper since they were easier to get, and cheaper. It is build solidly, and I've used it for many roasts.

Not sure if I said this in the blog stuff, but first thing I did to the Pumper was bypass the thermostat so it would get hot enough to roast, and to separate the heater power from fan power. So it has two cords, and I can control fan and heater independently.

Randy