Balthazar_B wrote:Dan: any last minute suggestions based on your testing thus far?

Sorry, I'm behind on my "pulling shots by the numbers" writeup. If you've read How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs and the Buyer's Guide to the Andreja Premium, you're well versed on the "water dance" method of temperature management. The concepts apply generally to all the HXs that I've tried, but you must adapt them slightly for each machine (and for commercial HX like Junior, not-so-slightly). In the case of the Vetrano in my kitchen, I've followed the flush-n-go approach instead of the rebound approach described in the article.

Part of the my choice is because of the influence of my experience with the Elektra A3, which rebounded so quickly there was no other option. The Vetrano would probably perform well either way and I will explore it more, however for now, allow me to offer few suggestions that follow flush-n-go:

• Let the machine warm up at least 30 minutes.
• After a long idle period, the first shot tends to run hot even if you flush six counts past the end of the water dance. You'll recognize it right away by the very dark initial stream, dark halo in the crema, and bitterness. Attempting to overcompensate by flushing a couple seconds longer doesn't work well since the temperature precipitously drops off toward the end of the extraction. A regular cooldown flush (six seconds past end of water dance) followed by two minutes of recovery time then a teenie two second burst before lock-in has given me nicely consistent results.
• Allow about two minutes of recovery time between shots. The temperature will trend downward over the course of several extractions if you go faster. Whether you flush or not after two minutes of idle time depends on the desired brew temperature and your taste. On a long series of shots, I'll flush maybe a second or two if the machine has idled longer than two minutes.
• Remember NOT to flush the group to rinse off grounds in between a series of extractions. The extraction temperatures will trend downward since the HX is losing recovery time and the grouphead is cooled by excessive/premature flushing. The rule is simple: If you're session is over, do the wiggle rinse and water backflush. If you plan another espresso, use the cooling flush to rinse down any grinds from the previous extraction (I noted this same consequence with the A3, but it's more pronounced with the smaller HX of the Vetrano).
• Although I described this as flush-n-go, I found it does need about 10-15 seconds of rebound time after the flush to reach the correct temperature (adjusted to taste, as usual).

Notice that several points above address something that the "HX Love" article doesn't treat in depth: How much should I flush if the machine is "kind of" idle, say around 3-4 minutes? The article's original intent was to explain the mechanics and offer proscriptive advice on improving the consistency of the very first extraction of a series, which tend to be all over the map (too hot or too cool) depending on the machine. With kids underfoot, I have less and less time in the morning and thus have finessed my routine for bang-bang-bang espressos.

The above is based only on less than a week with this machine, so expect some refinements. It's enough to get you started and I welcome your corrections/suggestions.

HB wrote:After a long idle period, the first shot tends to run hot even if you flush six counts past the end of the water dance. You'll recognize it right away by the very dark initial stream, dark halo in the crema, and bitterness. Attempting to overcompensate by flushing a couple seconds longer doesn't work well since the temperature precipitously drops off toward the end of the extraction. A regular cooldown flush (six seconds past end of water dance) followed by two minutes of recovery time then a teenie two second burst before lock-in has given me nicely consistent results.

or pull an initial garbage shot.

HB wrote:Allow about two minutes of recovery time between shots. The temperature will trend downward over the course of several extractions if you go faster. Whether you flush or not after two minutes of idle time depends on the desired brew temperature and your taste. On a long series of shots, I'll flush maybe a second or two if the machine has idled longer than two minutes.

hmmm... maybe i'm confused, but unless the temp trends downwards until it gets below the point where it sputters at all exiting the group, this should not be an issue (and if it is getting that cold, then I would argue this is a problem with the machine).

HB wrote:Although I described this as flush-n-go, I found it does need about 10-15 seconds of rebound time after the flush to reach the correct temperature (adjusted to taste, as usual).

Sounds like you're flushing too much (unless I'm mistaken).

Either as Malachi suggested you're flushing too much or the Vetrano is defective or isn't in the same league as the Bricoletta. On my Bric' with boiler set .95-1.15bar initially from idle I do a 20count beyond dance (about 12oz), then one minute to build PF, flush and go from just end of dance 206F, accurately one one thousand counts reduce temp by 1F each count. Follow shot by screen flush and PF blank wiggle then one minute later flush and go exactly the same for next shot, after shot, after shot. Have done 10 in a row no problem each with screen flush and PF wiggle between each and 1 minute PF build in between. (w/Thermofilter 25sec pulls)

Compass Coffee wrote:Either as Malachi suggested you're flushing too much or the Vetrano is defective or isn't in the same league as the Bricoletta. On my Bric' with boiler set .95-1.15bar initially from idle I do a 20count beyond dance (about 12oz), then one minute to build PF, flush and go from just end of dance 206F, accurately one one thousand counts reduce temp by 1F each count. Follow shot by screen flush and PF blank wiggle then one minute later flush and go exactly the same for next shot, after shot, after shot. Have done 10 in a row no problem each with screen flush and PF wiggle between each and 1 minute PF build in between. (w/Thermofilter 25sec pulls)

This is roughly the same as my experiences with my Bricc. My boiler setting is a little higher, but any longer than 60 seconds or so and I get flash-boiling water. I also do screen flushes and wiggles with no real impact on those recovery times.

Since we know that the boiler sizes are roughly equivalent on the Bricc v. Vetrano (they are either the same size, or the Vetrano is bigger by .1L, depending on what source you use for the boiler sizes), could this be a HX volume issue? Or could it be attributable to the more powerful heating element on the Bricc? Just seems like a pretty marked difference.

Dan.
Just out of curiosity, is your Vetrano hooked up to a water pressure regulator? Could not having one of these devices accelerate the flow of water through the rotary pump due to the direct connect? I know not having one can screw up pre-infusion. I'm not necessarily proposing this as an answer as I have been curious about this for some time.

Also, in your close-up of the dual manometer the reading for the boiler seemed a little low. Have you tried cranking the pstat yet?

skyryders90 wrote:Since we know that the boiler sizes are roughly equivalent on the Bricc v. Vetrano (they are either the same size, or the Vetrano is bigger by .1L, depending on what source you use for the boiler sizes), could this be a HX volume issue? Or could it be attributable to the more powerful heating element on the Bricc? Just seems like a pretty marked difference.

Unless you go look at the Bric' manual that says it's 2.5L boiler, at least mine does and it's in the English section! (of course also says 230v 1200w...)

Compass Coffee wrote:Unless you go look at the Bric' manual that says it's 2.5L boiler, at least mine does and it's in the English section! (of course also says 230v 1200w...)

Ha! I just looked and mine says the same thing. So there's yet another source to consider - though I'm much more inclined to believe the 1.5L or 1.6L that the various vendors state.

malachi wrote:or pull an initial garbage shot.

That would work too, but it pains me to waste good coffee for intentional sink shots.

malachi wrote:Sounds like you're flushing too much (unless I'm mistaken).

It's possible. I've had the machine up for only four days and I'm still feeling out the usage, especially for the "somewhat" idle period.

To be clear, when I said two minutes recovery time, I meant from the start of one extraction until the start of the next, not two idle minutes between the end of one and the start of the next. In trying to get a feel for the machine without the benefit of special tools, I've avoided stopwatches and thermofilters, so don't take these numbers too literally. But if you or another Bricoletta owner having a thermofilter handy wish to propose a recovery test protocol, I can run the same on the Vetrano.

HB wrote:To be clear, when I said two minutes recovery time, I meant from the start of one until the start of the next, not two idle minutes between the end of one and the start of the next. In trying to get a feel for the machine without the benefit of special tools, I've avoided stopwatches and thermofilters, so don't take these numbers too literally. But if you or another Bricoletta owner having a thermofilter handy wish to propose a recovery test protocol, I can run the same on the Vetrano.

Ah, what does a word mean anyway. I was assuming recovery time meant from completion of shot 'till recovered and ready for the next. Though I estimate (haven't timed it) 2 minutes would be about my time from start of shot to start of next shot including screen flush and PF blank wiggle when doing a series of shots. I don't know about proposing a recovery time protocol, but I can detail what's working for me including volumes consumed in screen flush and blank wiggle, and maybe reduce the 1min end of shot to start of next shot in 5sec increments and record the results. Doing I don't know maybe at least 6 test shots at each recovery time tested. I seemed to recall trying 45sec time and resulting in reducing temp in a series, but that was day one during about 3 hour surf dialing in and don't recall exactly. (4 days ago here too!) For recovery comparison probably want to set boiler pressure the same? I've dialed my Bric' down for 206F flush and go shot just at the end of dance no count, about .95-1.15bar. Figured not going to want a hotter shot than that 'bout any blend or SO or roast. (I'm dancing by sound without PF in grouphead, works quite well IMO, for me anyway.) I'd include screen flush and blank wiggle in any recovery protocol 'cuz in real shots no way I'm gonna pull the next shots in a series with any old grinds hanging up! I might add my somewhat leisurely seeming 1min end of shot after screen flush and PF wiggle to start of next shot includes hot water rinsing PF, drying PF, then fill etc. (hot water not from Bric' but from 190F hot water on demand unit in sink) Come to think of it the 1min isn't to the actual start of next shot, it's to the flush and go followed by shot within about 5sec.

For the heck of it just ran a series of 24 back to back (Thermofilter) 25 sec shots on my Bricoletta. Between each shot screen flush and PF blank wiggle, dumped into Pyrex measuring cup averaging 2.5oz total. Started 1min timer end of each flush and wiggle. Total time from start of one shot, flush & wiggle, 1min wait to simulate PF load, flush and go to start of next shot averaged 1min 45sec. First pulled 6 206F target no wait shots, these had about 3.5F temp drop during the shot. Followed by 6 200F shots, these had more like 1.5F intrashot stability. Then started "calling my shot temps" from 198 to 204F. Out of the 24 shots only had one miss by more than 1F, many within .1 or .2F and a few dead on max temp, averaged probably within .6 or .7F (Didn't record each shot so a quesstimate). Unfortunately the Fluke 51 II I'm using doesn't have data logging capabilities. Also, first shot in the series was from idle with 16 count after end of flash then 1min wait to flush and go. This seems to work for my pressure setting.

FWIW 1st-Line lists the Bric's duty cycle as 200 cups per day. At that slowish pace of mine I'd have to quit in 5.83 hours. I can live with that

Of interest might be the heater would always be kicked on end of wiggle which was start of 1min PF simulated fill timer. Heater would kick back on once during the 1min between 34 or 24 sec left depending on the previous shot temp pulled. (for about 5sec) The 6 200F shots I noticed it consistently kicked back on right at 24 or 25sec left of the countdown off at 20sec left. It was always just about ready to kick back on again per the gauge when the 1min elapsed but never did until starting the flush and go. Might be even more consistent hitting desired shot temp if waiting for heater to kick back on the second time and immediately starting flush and go at that point, something I'll likely play with since when pulling actual shots I'm not using a timer between shots! (but have timed what it actually takes me a couple times the past few days) Would slow me down a bit when pulling a series of shots but if it proves to be more shot temp accurate, so be it!

Doesn't really have anything to do with the Vetrano though...except maybe to replicate the procedure I used and see how the Vetrano handles it.