Vibratory pump electrical wiring help

Equipment doesn't work? Troubleshooting? If you're handy, members can help.
Mike1

#1: Post by Mike1 »

Hello,

I am trying to piece together the electrical wiring of my La Spaziale Professionale espresso machine. I found a German website that has a similar Professionale model with the electrical wiring clearly laid out. I am posting two relevant pictures from the website. The website has more pictures. https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/verk ... bi.130788/

I just need to know how the wiring of the vibratory pump should be connected. On the first picture, one of the wires (colored brown) of the pump is connected to the white wire. The other pump wire (also colored the same shade of brown) is connected to one of the plug wires (colored a different shade of brown). I just need to know if that plug wire is the "hot" or the "neutral."

If it helps, a black wire is also connected to the plug wire (and to one of the wires of the pump). That black wire goes to the bi-polar switch as seen in the second picture. Then it goes to the single-pole switch. Also shown in the second picture is that white wire (that the other pump wire is connected to) which goes to the single-pole switch.

I don't think the color of the plug wires is a good indicator of whether it is hot or not. According to Italian electrical codes, the brown plug wire is "hot" and the blue plug wire is "neutral." But on my machine, I inspected the plug: it is the reverse: blue wire is "hot" while brown wire is "neutral."

So, can anyone tell me if the pump wire is connected to the hot plug wire or to the neutral plug wire?

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Jeff

#2: Post by Jeff »

To be very, very clear, based on reading an even older thread of yours, you are in over your skill and knowledge level to be doing any electrical work of this nature.

I can not recommend that you proceed.

I agree with the closing post there, Trying to restore my La Spaziale Professonale

I have to agree here with Nirdvorai. His points and the three points I've just made should be obvious to anyone picturing how the machine should work, before trying to do electrical work on it. I haven't seen your work but it sounds like you're beyond the "Getting Dangerous" line. You've got all the new parts paid for, spend a bit on professional electrical help.


If you cannot find someone able to restore your machine, you either need to acquire the skills to do so yourself, safely, or abandon the project.




Some Italian machines I have worked with have hot/line and neutral reversed. While they will still run, this is generally considered a safety issue. On the machines I have seen this, the wiring is sensible (brown, hot, switched), but the US line cord was wired backwards.

Edit: Are you absolutely certain that the line cord is wired backwards? Looking carefully at your photo, it seems that it has European-style color coding where it attaches to the terminal block, which is harder to mess up than the US convention of black being hot/line.

In general, single-phase AC devices should have neutral connected and hot switched. If there is a fuse or other protective device (like a temperature cut-out or "Klixon"), that generally should be on the hot side, not the neutral.

If the device has a metal frame that is attached through solid metal to the machine's frame, which is bonded to the supply ground, make sure those connections are clean, tight, and conduct well. Especially if "floating" on mounts, some devices have a grounding terminal that should be used with an appropriate grounding lead. Some devices have a screw that can be used for this purpose. Especially with older gear, grounding may not be up to current standards.

The ground should NEVER intentionally carry current. It's there so when something goes wrong, with luck it won't kill you.

The switched hot for a typical vibe pump in an espresso machine often comes from the controller ("Gicar"), especially if the same pump fills the steam boiler as well as providing brew pressure. If the pump's only function is to brew, the switched hot may come directly from the "brew" switch.

Edit: Do you have the controller box? I don't recall seeing it on your earlier thread.

https://www.cafeparts.com/Espresso-Mach ... aldi-S1-Ro

shows #30, which appears to be a controller. Without that, or a suitable replacement, getting it functional will be close to impossible without a deep knowledge of electricity and electronics.

Edit: You should take the time to read a translation of the site you linked. It includes things like "I think this machine is self-made based on a special. There are other indications of this", and, perhaps most importantly
!!
I don't trust the machine electrically. I am not an expert myself - he should have a look over the machine; Especially since it looks like you have built it yourself. I notice that the switch is dimly lit even in the off state. There is a current where nobody should flow.
!!

Mike1

#3: Post by Mike1 »

Jeff wrote:To be very, very clear, based on reading an even older thread of yours, you are in over your skill and knowledge level to be doing any electrical work of this nature.

I can not recommend that you proceed.



I agree with the closing post there, Trying to restore my La Spaziale Professonale



If you cannot find someone able to restore your machine, you either need to acquire the skills to do so yourself, safely, or abandon the project.
I had two threads. The other thread is La Spaziale Professionale electrical wiring help

I am not fooling myself at all. I am perfectly aware that I know nothing of this. That is why I am asking for help in putting together the electrical wiring. I am not doing the electrical wiring myself or starting from scratch. Most of the wiring is untouched by me except the pump wires. All I am asking is how the vibratory pump should be wired.

I read the Terms of Use of this forum. I take full responsibility for my machine. No one else but me.
Jeff wrote:Some Italian machines I have worked with have hot/line and neutral reversed. While they will still run, this is generally considered a safety issue. On the machines I have seen this, the wiring is sensible (brown, hot, switched), but the US line cord was wired backwards.
Are you saying it is safer to reverse the hot/line and neutral? If not, why were they reversed?

Those Italian machines that you worked on that were reversed: were they imported? Were any of them La Spaziale machines and did any of them have a 110V vibratory pump?


Jeff wrote:Edit: Are you absolutely certain that the line cord is wired backwards? Looking carefully at your photo, it seems that it has European-style color coding where it attaches to the terminal block, which is harder to mess up than the US convention of black being hot/line.
On my machine, yes. I unscrewed the machine plug to see the wires. The blue wire is screwed to the shorter prong of the plug; the brown wire is screwed to the longer prong of the plug. That means that the blue wire is the hot wire. So, the wires are reversed from the Italian wiring color code of brown is "hot", blue is "neutral."
Jeff wrote:In general, single-phase AC devices should have neutral connected and hot switched. If there is a fuse or other protective device (like a temperature cut-out or "Klixon"), that generally should be on the hot side, not the neutral.
Could you please tell me more on what the neutral should be connected to? and what the hot should be switched to?

I don't think there is a fuse. The La Spaziale Professionale is a very old model, from the 80's. I remember my father tried to interest me in the machine (at the time I wasn't interested in, which I now regret). He said not to turn on the on/off button and coffee button at the same time for safety. He said to wait for the light of the on/off button to turn off before turning on the coffee button. He also said to keep the temperature at 90 degrees Celsius at all times.
Jeff wrote:If the device has a metal frame that is attached through solid metal to the machine's frame, which is bonded to the supply ground, make sure those connections are clean, tight, and conduct well. Especially if "floating" on mounts, some devices have a grounding terminal that should be used with an appropriate grounding lead. Some devices have a screw that can be used for this purpose. Especially with older gear, grounding may not be up to current standards.

The ground should NEVER intentionally carry current. It's there so when something goes wrong, with luck it won't kill you.
My machine does not have a grounding terminal but it has a green wire that is fastened to one of the bolts that holds the boiler in place. That green wire is connected to the green wire of the plug. The German machine I linked to is the same way. It is hard to see but the green/yellow wire is connected to a bolt hidden behind the green, black and white wires. That green wire is clearly connected to the green wire of the plug, the same as my machine. Is that okay?
Jeff wrote:Edit: Do you have the controller box? I don't recall seeing it on your earlier thread.

https://www.cafeparts.com/Espresso-Mach ... aldi-S1-Ro

shows #30, which appears to be a controller. Without that, or a suitable replacement, getting it functional will be close to impossible without a deep knowledge of electricity and electronics.
I don't have #30 nor does the German machine seem to have one. I have something similar to #26 on the link you provided. I bought and replaced it. It is called, in Italian, "Morsettierra 4 Poli." Is that a controller?
Jeff wrote:Edit: You should take the time to read a translation of the site you linked. It includes things like "I think this machine is self-made based on a special. There are other indications of this", and, perhaps most importantly
I did not have the page translated. It is disappointing that I can't use that machine as a reference.

However, there is another German machine online that I am using as a reference. That machine is an exact model to mine whereas the other German machine is a similar La Spaziale Professionale model. The wiring in that machine is identical to my machine and to the other German machine. Except I can't see where they go to the "Morsettierra 4 Poli." https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/la-s ... le.108939/

RobAnybody

#4: Post by RobAnybody »

Mike1 wrote:"Morsettierra 4 Poli." Is that a controller?
No, directly translated it means four pronged terminalblock.

In my experience so far, the hot/neutral/ground colour coding only holds until the mains line reaches the terminal block (with the exception of the ground that one often stays green or green yellow) after that each line colour represents a specific group, for instance red runs via the thermofuse, light blue goes from the switch directly to the heating element, black is used between sitches and lights and white is for switched connections to functional elements (pump/heating element) the actual coding used will most likely depend on the manufacturer.
For the wiring of the pump itself, please note that in the post you linked the authors state that this machine was modified at some point by a previous owner, the tank was enlarged, the OVP is missing so I would also take into account that the wiring there could have been altered.
It is indeed safer to switch the hot wire as it carries the current. If you switch the neutral wire any stray connections (due to moisture or something else) could still lead to short circuit.
Cheers,
Rob
LMWDP #647

Mike1

#5: Post by Mike1 »

RobAnybody wrote:No, directly translated it means four pronged terminalblock.
Okay. Does my machine need a controller or is the terminalblock sufficient?
RobAnybody wrote:In my experience so far, the hot/neutral/ground colour coding only holds until the mains line reaches the terminal block (with the exception of the ground that one often stays green or green yellow)
It sounds like you are saying that the brown plug wire should always be "hot" and the blue plug wire should always be "neutral."

So, the plug of my machine should not, under any circumstances, have reversed wires. Is that correct?
RobAnybody wrote: It is indeed safer to switch the hot wire as it carries the current. If you switch the neutral wire any stray connections (due to moisture or something else) could still lead to short circuit.
What do you mean by "to switch" the hot wire? Are you saying the hot wire should be connected to the switch?

nahau

#6: Post by nahau »

Mike1,
For the sake of getting your machine repaired, you really need to take it in, hire someone to come to your house, or send it to someone to repair it for you. Did you contact Chis Coffee like I recommended in one of your other threads? Granted, they're across the border, but they're only 150 miles from Montreal.

Everyone is saying it, and I think it also, that this is beyond your capabilities and dangerous. You have no concept of electricity/electronics or the terminology used in the field and so your questions are always asking the same thing probably because you want to make extra sure because you lack understanding. For instance "switched". Do you understand what it means when someone tells you the hot should be switched? It simply means that on a device that needs hot and neutral to run, and has a switch installed in the circuit, then it's best practice to install the switch in the "hot" line, and not the neutral line. That's all it means. Yet because you don't understand the terminology, you keep asking the same questions and get confused by the word "switch", or "switched" and you often miss the context of the reply.

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Please save yourself some grief and take your machine to someone to have it repaired.

Mike1

#7: Post by Mike1 »

nahau wrote:Mike1,
For the sake of getting your machine repaired, you really need to take it in, hire someone to come to your house, or send it to someone to repair it for you. Did you contact Chis Coffee like I recommended in one of your other threads? Granted, they're across the border, but they're only 150 miles from Montreal.
Yes, I contacted Chris's Coffee. In the thread that you said you read through, I detailed my correspondence with Chris's Coffee. Trying to restore my La Spaziale Professonale
nahau wrote:Everyone is saying it, and I think it also, that this is beyond your capabilities and dangerous. You have no concept of electricity/electronics or the terminology used in the field and so your questions are always asking the same thing probably because you want to make extra sure because you lack understanding. For instance "switched". Do you understand what it means when someone tells you the hot should be switched? It simply means that on a device that needs hot and neutral to run, and has a switch installed in the circuit, then it's best practice to install the switch in the "hot" line, and not the neutral line. That's all it means. Yet because you don't understand the terminology, you keep asking the same questions and get confused by the word "switch", or "switched" and you often miss the context of the reply.
Thank you for answering that question. The diagram was helpful. Now I know that "to be switched" means "to have a toggle switch connected."

This is a repair forum. I thought it was okay to ask for help in a forum dedicated to repair advice. I thought it was okay to ask some simple questions and get simple direct answers. I have only gotten a few direct answers to some questions from JRising and that is it. If I have been repeating myself, it is only because posters have either not really read my posts, or did not understand what I wrote or did not give direct answers.

nahau

#8: Post by nahau »

Mike1 wrote:Thank you for answering that question. The diagram was helpful. Now I know that "to be switched" means "to have a toggle switch connected."
You see, this is the problem with internet communication... misinterpretations abound. It doesn't mean "to have a toggle switch connected". It doesn't actually have anything to do with what kind of switch is installed. "Switch the hot wire" (as RobAnybody wrote) simply means that if you're going to have a switch in the circuit, it should be on the "hot" side and not the neutral. Take the switch out of your head and try to envision the concept.
Mike1 wrote:This is a repair forum. I thought it was okay to ask for help in a forum dedicated to repair advice. I thought it was okay to ask some simple questions and get simple direct answers. I have only gotten a few direct answers to some questions from JRising and that is it. If I have been repeating myself, it is only because posters have either not really read my posts, or did not understand what I wrote or did not give direct answers.
Yes, this is a repair forum, and it is ok to ask for help, people do it all the time. Even novice electronic questions are asked and answered here. But, you're mistaken about not getting direct answers... you did, but you didn't understand them. Just like what RobAnybody wrote, you didn't understand it and so I had to go so far as to create and post a picture to try explain it to you like this was Electronics 101. The forum is here to help, not hold someones hand through every step, and teach basic electronics. When someone appears they don't know enough about electricity, (which you demonstrated numerous times) then it's time to try to push them to get the machine repaired by a qualified individual rather than have something bad happen... like electrocution, damage to the machine or its parts, fire, etc.

We all realize the machine is special to you and you want to get it up and running as fast as you can. You've worked on it for a very long time, and you still haven't got it running. Spending time here is not going to fix this machine because you just don't have the necessary skills to do it safely. Please take the following advice...
nahau wrote:Please save yourself some grief and take your machine to someone to have it repaired.
EDIT: I wanted to add that we're not trying to give you a hard time here... we're genuinely concerned about a possible safety issue. If you take the machine in, even if it's just to get the pump wired correctly, then it shouldn't cost you an arm or leg, and you might learn a lot from the repair people just by speaking with them about your machine. Please consider it.