Greetings,

Been reading through posts on this site and others for about a week. About a year ago, I ran across a 2000 Carimali that "had a broken water pump." Last week, the owner gave up on the machine for good, and it's now mine to attempt to fix. I'm not actually sure that it's actually an "Eco", but it looks like this but with a single group head

First, I "unstuck" the water pump by putting it in vinegar for four hours, working the drive shaft, and now it sucks in/outputs air and water. It's possible that there's still too much friction in the water pump, and that that's the root of my current problems. However, it seems like it's something else.

Thanks to the many posts and links* of you fine folks, I've learned a bit about the thermosyphon and the "stall" effect. That being said, my understanding is incomplete.

The key problem is that when I load up my portafilter with coffee, hardly any water makes it through the portafilter into my cup. A secondary problem is the temperature of the water coming out of the group head. The symptoms are as follows (some of which I'm sure will be extremely telling)

(a) When the machine has been on for a long time (> 1 hour) the temperature at the group is 30-40 degrees lower than the temperature at the hot water dispenser. The page at frcndigital.com (linked below) states that this is indicative of being in the stall situation

(b) When the machine has been on for a long time water takes a while to exit. This may be because my water source isn't pressurized, so air gets in the line (working on fixing that).

(c) There seem to be two exits from pipes into the drain pan that aren't associated with the group (or the hot water dispenser/steam wand). Water comes out of both of these pipes.

The first is connected to what looks like a manifold of sorts. The manifold is connected to the output of the water pump and the boiler. The manifold also has what I'm pretty sure is a solenoid sitting on it. Specifically: http://www.cafeparts.com/Solenoid-Valve ... oduct/8145 . Maybe it's the "boiler fill solenoid" shown on this diagram:



The other pipe seems to be from something that _might_ be a flow restrictor connected to a solenoid. It looks like the solenoid linked above, except that there's a flow restrictor at the top instead of the bolt (also, the solenoid is turned another direction). Finally, this solenoid is connected to the group head in the area that looks to me like it could be a thermosyphon. When the machine is hot, water comes gushing out of here. When the machine is cold, water also comes out of here pretty vigorously.

Would someone be so kind as to please help me understand where to focus my efforts and learning? Should I learn more about the stall? Should I replace one or both of the solenoids? Should I replace the water pump?

Many thanks,
David

Bottom Solenoid:


Solenoid? by brew head:


Solenoid? by brew head (side view):



* Flow restrictor effect on cooling flush
* A post from HB discussing why we have to flush so much
* http://www.espressomyespresso.com/stall.html

Post some pictures up of the internals of the machine so we can see what you are talking about. I also found a Carimali manual on anotheer coffe site I'm a member of, PM me your email and I'll send it to you as theres hydralic diagrams for a number of models which should help you. It looks like they use a e61 thermosyphon group as well as a non thermo syphon heat ecxhanger group with passive heating from being connected to the boiler depending on model. So before you start thinking about thermosyphon stall get a handle on the hydraulic circuit of the machine and where the water is meant to go under what condition you will be in a better position to work out if you need to replace parts or just descale / unblock what is already there.

Whilst I have no experience with Carimali's I've been bringing a Livia 90 back to life recently and all or some of the issues I have found will probably apply to you:
Pump stuck, yours is a rotary by the sound of it soaking the whole thing in vinegar is not the best for the bearings long term.
Solenoid valves, the one on the manifold will be the boiler fill valve and could not be sealing properly allowing water pressure to escape into the boiler (~1.2 Bar) while you are trying to pull a shot (~9 Bar) , like most of us water always takes the easiest path.
Solenoid near the group head will be the 3 way solenoid, it exhausts out of the port on the top when you are not pulling a shot, it could be leaking and not sealing very well
Gicleur / gigler blocked this will be in the feed water piping to the group head, mine was blocked with scale and initially there was no flow when the 3 way solenoid opened to pull a shot.

MODs can pdf files be attached to posts on HB?

Thanks, @noidea. I've added some pictures. Sorry, I meant to include them in the original post, but I had some technical issues. Resolved them now though!

Still can't figure out what part by the brew head. The Carimali sales sticker on it makes me wonder if someone in the past ordered a part that goes somewhere else (or in another machine) and jerry rigged it to work in this situation. I don't see any solinoid parts where the liquid comes out the "top" on either cafeparts.com or espressoparts.com. I guess I'll take it apart and see what's inside. Maybe it's just caked over.

Finally figured it out. It's a standard Parker 3-way Solenoid Coil, part ZB09, combined with the "3-way solenoid coil valve guide"

Coil:
https://www.cafeparts.com/Coil-Parker-Z ... oduct/9368
https://www.espressoparts.com/110v-50-6 ... enoid-coil

Valve:
<didn't find it on cafeparts>
https://www.espressoparts.com/parker-th ... alve-guide

Complete assembly:
https://www.cafeparts.com/3-way-Solenoi ... oduct/9348
https://www.espressoparts.com/110-115v- ... d-complete


Looks like I should be able to take off the coil and clean the valve. I assume the coil is busted, but I plan to make sure the valve is okay before just ordering the coil.

Thanks for the manual @noidea! Once I was able to confirm that the part was indeed a solenoid, I was able to search much more effectively.

Somehow I managed to fry the solenoid. I took out the valve, and the coil seemed to be working before when I tested it by lightly placing a screw driver in it and observing the coil "suck it in." However, when I was running the machine without any metal in the coil, I put my finger over one of the brew holes (where the water comes out), and within 5 seconds, I saw some smoke, and there was an an audible pop. Was the circuit compensating for me putting my finger over the hole by applying more current, thus frying the coil? Surely the brewhead wasn't acting as a heatsink.... My lack of knowledge has me confused as to why such a thing would fry the coil.

there is no heatsink for the coil anyway. they should be fine at least for a minute outside the valve body. and they really don't care for your fingers blocking anything outside.

just pop in a new coil (be sure to get one that holds your mains voltage) and go. I would actually recommend you to exchange the whole valve body, both 2 way and 3 way - sure it's expensive (BTW 75$ for a whole assembly is a rip-off), but you might save yourself some time in the end.

Ah, okay, thanks @Kolu.

BTW, I think it's priced at $75, because it includes the shipping. The first set of parts I got from cafeparts had $15 in shipping for 2-day USPS... not sure how bad that is. Of course I wish all parts were $25, but at least they're available. As I learn more about these machines, the more pleasantly surprised I am that they're made up of industrial commodity parts. Of course that makes sense in retrospect, but, as a consumer, everything comes across as custom built (certainly, marketing departments want us to think that).

You're probably right about buying new solenoids. I'll probably replace the procon pump too while I'm at it.

Took the other solenoid off (the one at the bottom by the manifold). It looks to be the same as the other one, except there's no hole in the top. I guess that's one of the typical ways to implement the difference in "ways" between a 2-way and 3-way solenoid.

Hi!

Not long ago I restored a Carimali Uno anno 1988. I dont know if the Eco is build the same way, but the parts look familiar. I didnt have the same problem as yours, but You might pick up some useful info from my thread. Carimali Uno P 1988 restoration

Good luck!
Simon