My Appartamento is idling between 140-180F at the grouphead (Eric's E-61 thermometer measured) while the boiler is at 1.1-1.2 bar. Significant flushing will get the machine to around 200F, but never to the 212-215F it would usually be prior to flushing.

I live in St. Louis, MO, and until around a year ago used tap water with no treatment. Mea culpa. Since then I have switched to 3WW/making my own non-scaling water, and I have descaled numerous times. On initial advice, I believed my issue was a thermo block and descaled the brew circuit. The issue has continued.

I have owned this machine around seven years. Any ideas on what to do to fix this?

This recent thread is about a different machine (HX), but it probably applies to your issue:

E61 HX grouphead temperature not reaching its max (Rocket EVO v2)

Pressino wrote:This recent thread is about a different machine (HX), but it probably applies to your issue:

I've reviewed this thread and our issues are similar, but different. I have zero issues with boiler pressure and the steam/hot water acts normally when run. However, my current reading on my grouphead thermometer this morning was in the 130's. I pretty regularly descaled the boiler, though not by siphoning the entire boiler. I would let the boiler hit full pressure, turn the machine off, and bleed the hot water valve until water ceased. Then I would allow the boiler to fill with descaling solution, sit, empty, and repeat a few times with clean water. Not sure if this could have led to any of my issues, which seem like they're isolated to the brewing circuit.

Yesterday I found a leak at the mushroom and replaced the teflon seal and tightened it down, but the leak stopped and the brew temperature issue continued. Chris' Coffee suggested that at this point I ship it to them, which I'd like to avoid given the likely cost, as they're diagnosing via email that there is scale in the lower and upper exchanges that need to be soaked with descale and cleaned. I found a local source who said the machine sounds fine, you should post on home-barista. So here I am!

One post in the other thread, though, did catch my eye:

it would be well worth it to syphon the boiler and flush the HX tube both ways, i.e. running water into top, then bottom holes in the group.

I have never done this: my recent descaling of the HX was just by running descale with the brew lever. I'm frankly not sure how one would do what is being described, but given that my problem appears to be in the HX area, this seems like maybe a direction I should go? Is there a tutorial on this forum for how to do this? I searched but could not locate anything helpful.

When you had the mushroom out, was there calcium on it and/or the brew valve?

If you allow the boiler to fill cold, then remove the mushroom, then un-seat the brew valve to let the grouphead's water level sit below the upper port, then allow the boiler to heat until the vacuum breaker stops hissing, does some thermosiphon flow become visible spilling down into the grouphead? If you let it continue heating 3 more minutes how fast is the thermosiphon flow in the grouphead.

Depending on what your answer about the calcium on the mushroom and brew valve was, consider descaling the brew/HX circuit.
The above all relates to the assumption that your heat isn't circulating to the head due to partial calcium blockage. You should also rule out any leakages from the brew circuit allowing it to expand a steam pocket and for the liquid level to fall too low for the thermosiphon effect to get the liquid to the top port.

If you run the pump with the brew valve closed, does it drip from the E61 drain valve? Does the boiler pressure gauge rise?
It could also be allowing HX water to be displaced over the OPV if that leaks or back toward the pump if the check valve leaks. These might be apparent by how hot the tube out of the pump feels or the OPV displacing into the receiver (white cup under reservoir) and making the receiver overflow if the machine idles with the reservoir out but with enough water in the receiver to keep the boiler hot.

Let's rule things out, if possible.

When you had the mushroom out, was there calcium on it and/or the brew valve?

No, but this is a new mushroom since about February of this year. The ceramic one that came with it broke off on the inside and I replaced it with stainless. Here's what it looks like now:



But back in June I found clear evidence of scale in the machine:



This is what led me to my descaling quest in general.

If you allow the boiler to fill cold, then remove the mushroom, then un-seat the brew valve to let the grouphead's water level sit below the upper port, then allow the boiler to heat until the vacuum breaker stops hissing, does some thermosiphon flow become visible spilling down into the grouphead? If you let it continue heating 3 more minutes how fast is the thermosiphon flow in the grouphead.

Here's a video of what happened shortly after the vac breaker kicked on. I got an initial shot of liquid, a few additional spurts, and then no flow of substance. The boiler is now about 10 minutes out from turning on and I'm getting a couple drops out of the drain valve every few seconds.

If you run the pump with the brew valve closed, does it drip from the E61 drain valve? Does the boiler pressure gauge rise?
It could also be allowing HX water to be displaced over the OPV if that leaks or back toward the pump if the check valve leaks. These might be apparent by how hot the tube out of the pump feels or the OPV displacing into the receiver (white cup under reservoir) and making the receiver overflow if the machine idles with the reservoir out but with enough water in the receiver to keep the boiler hot.

When I click the brew lever with the brew valve back in place, but the mushroom still removed, water comes out of the grouphead. When I close the lever, boiler pressure rose to about 1.4. I went to test it again to check what came out of the drain valve, and the mushroom cavity filled completely, which I assume is related to the raised boiler pressure.

It seems to me that there's something mobile and lodged in the upper part of the exchanger that occasionally is allowing burps of liquid by when the pressure is higher. Does that make sense?

It was homeburrero's post #10 in the thread I linked to that I thought might be most relevant to your problem. Also, your posted pics do indicate your machine experienced a lot of limescale, and from the picture of the mushroom I'd also be concerned about corrosion. You mentioned the mushroom was stainless steel, but from the picture looks like chrome plated brass, unless I'm misinterpreting coffee stains for what looks like corrosion...although I'm not sure how coffee would get into the mushroom chamber.

What I'm thinking is that your thermosiphon is blocked.

here's the post: E61 HX grouphead temperature not reaching its max (Rocket EVO v2)

regarding corrosion: chloride is the usual cause.

Also, your posted pics do indicate your machine experienced a lot of limescale, and from the picture of the mushroom I'd also be concerned about corrosion. You mentioned the mushroom was stainless steel, but from the picture looks like chrome plated brass, unless I'm misinterpreting coffee stains for what looks like corrosion...although I'm not sure how coffee would get into the mushroom chamber.

You're right, it's not stainless, it's this part:

https://www.espressocare.com/products/i ... a-and-arie

What would cause corrosion under these circumstances? Color me concerned here! I've been using Third Wave Water since before this mushroom was installed. It's currently soaking in white vinegar to see what comes off of it.

From your linked post:

When scale gets bad, dismantling and descaling in a bath is always best. I think you could get away with removing a fitting like the anti-vac valve and doing repeated descaling and rinsing of the boiler, with strong spray and siphoning until its clean of all loosened scale, maybe remove the pressurestat and make sure that pipe is clear, then finish up with a final conventional descale or two. Others with professional experience (Stefano or JRising for example) would know best about that.

If this is the issue, it is in line with what Chris' Coffee suggested was the solution here (no pun intended). Is dismantling and descaling too big a job for a home hobbyist like me who is moderately handy? I don't know where the parts that homeburrero is referencing are on my Appartamento to do the stopgap method, either. Would my assumption be correct that my descaling of the boiler without siphoning the liquid out and filling the boiler fully may be what caused this issue?

Do we also think this issue is beyond "get a hose from the hardware store and flush the top and bottom ports in the mushroom chamber" bad?

achosid wrote: When I click the brew lever with the brew valve back in place, but the mushroom still removed, water comes out of the grouphead. When I close the lever, boiler pressure rose to about 1.4. I went to test it again to check what came out of the drain valve, and the mushroom cavity filled completely, which I assume is related to the raised boiler pressure.

Oh, sorry... I misled you. I didn't mean for you to run the pump while the mushroom was still removed. I hope you didn't get hot water in the face. But from your description, the test was successful, the thermosiphon loop is definitely not clogged in the upper pipe. It's percolating nicely as the HX brings its water to a boil.

Anyway. Your thermosiponing looked good. If anything's blocked, it's in the lower tube preventing the water from returning to HX rapidly, but I think it's okay because usually the upper pipe is what clogs (It's where the steam pocket can develop, hence vaporizing water is able to precipitate any dissolved solids), though the lower pipe is possible to clog, I don't think yours is. (And your grouphead is beautifully clean inside).

Luckily I had stepped a way a bit by the time the mushroom cavity filled. Necessitated some towels but my face is fine!

Your thermosiponing looked good. If anything's blocked, it's in the lower tube preventing the water from returning to HX rapidly, but I think it's okay because usually the upper pipe is what clogs (It's where the steam pocket can develop, hence vaporizing water is able to precipitate any dissolved solids), though the lower pipe is possible to clog, I don't think yours is. (And your grouphead is beautifully clean inside).

So if this is the case: why is my grouphead temperature so low? I did buy some tubing at the hardware store with the intent of pouring some descaling solutions in both holes of the mushroom cavity, unless that sounds like a bad/unnecessary idea.

I let descaling solution sit in the mushroom cavity for a bit and flushed into the two ports with a hose/funnel. No change in behavior. Did a descale with 1/2C of Dezcal in the reservoir and tilting the machine away from the fill valve to overfill the boiler. It's currently much improved, idling at 193F. I'm going to give it another boiler scale and hope it gets me all the way there. I have a feeling I wasn't exchanging water out of the boiler often enough and it built up, leading to that picture of scale I posted. After I get this clean, it shouldn't be an issue going forward since I'm using non scaling water.