Livia's Lover: A Relay-table question?

Equipment doesn't work? Troubleshooting? If you're handy, members can help.
claypriley

#1: Post by claypriley »

Hi Espresso Brothers and Sisters: Recently I started studying the Pasquini Livia 90 because there have been a lot of them showing up "for Parts" on the Bay, for $250-300! Weren't these machines like $1200+ new, in their time? So I took the plunge and decided to learn to work on pump driven machines with little relays and expensive CPU's.... Up until now I have just been working on lever machines, so simple....

I got lucky on the purchase of a Livia 90 with serial #2698, (circa 1996 I was told from Pasquini)...... with a 70w ulka pump(monster!).... sweet blue casing with hardly a scratch..... I had the CPU tested at boytindustries.com, and it was all good! So I did a DEeeeeEP clean, and citric cleaned the boiler, element, all copper tubing and even the HX tube! oooo so shiny! This machine works awesome for $300!!
I installed one of the 4 hole aftermarket steam tip(billed as a "La Marzocco style") from espressoparts, and she makes the silkiest micro foam!

Okay so what's my "Relay-table question"? Well, my relay and the post I read here in HB. I decided to change my relay because mine is looking pitted and makes giant sparks! Well, it is 24 years old!.. I read Pasquini Livia Safety Relay Replacement a post from back in 2015 by HB'er "ddn".



It was very, very interesting, and I ended up buying a solid state relay mentioned in the post. The only problem is that right at the end of 10 posts, when ddn offers to send another HB'er the wiring diagram for how he wired the new solid state relay into his Livia machine..... there isn't any diagram help. So, that is what I am looking for, a little Relay-table(relatable word play) wiring help, because I don't want to hurt this sweet restored Livia..... BTW it's time for my afternoon shot..... I have a little fresh roasted Brazilian/Ethiopian blend going....

I sort of understand where at post #7 it is written "You want to connect the big heavy gauge wires that go to the heater across the contact pins of the relay, and use the smaller gauge wires to drive the coil."

So I am thinking that I would connect the heavy gauge "power coming in" wires to the input terminals #3, and #4, and then the lighter gauge wires to the other side terminals of #1 and #2?

I did PM ddn with this question. I haven't heard anything, but it might just be too old of a post.... So if anyone has had experience wiring a solid state relay into their Livia 90 machine (my old relay is a 30amp, 4 prong), please let me know. I am looking to see how quiet I can make Livia while she is cycling the heating element.... Right now she goes CLuNK!, Spark-Flash!

If only she had a rotary vane pump! That's why it is always good to start the day off on a Lever machine.... they are so quiet...

I hope someone out in here has some input or,.. er output, or, well you know what I mean.... Thanks, Clay
LMWDP #347

claypriley (original poster)

#2: Post by claypriley (original poster) »

Whoops, bad math.... 2022-1996= 26 year old machine and relay.
LMWDP #347

ira
Team HB

#3: Post by ira »

If the original relay is an externally mounted relay and has the same input voltage as the SSD you purchased you can just replace the original relay and wire it the same noting only that SSDs require some sort of heatsink as they can get warm. If the relay in question is in the black box and you want to add an external SSD, that is slightly more involved.

User avatar
Jeff
Team HB

#4: Post by Jeff »

(You can copy/paste the link of a post and it should auto-format with the thread title)

Did you order an SSR or the standard relay G7L-1A-TUB-J-CB-AC100/120 ?

https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/pro ... en-g7l.pdf

The pinout shows 0 and 1 as the coil and 4 and 6 as the "switched load". I don't know what you have with the older relay for terminal numbers or identification.

There is a wiring diagram for a some-era Livia at Pasquini Livia 90S stopped heating - sort of Assuming it is close enough to yours, A and B are the coil and, as best as I can read, 4/6 and 7/9 are the load. (Side note: paralleling contacts like that doesn't improve the current capacity)

claypriley (original poster)

#5: Post by claypriley (original poster) »

Thanks! for the tip about needing some sort of heat sink for the SSR. I didn't see anything mentioned in the posts from 7 years ago. I am sure that it is general knowledge in the electronics world, which I am just learning about. And yes the original Relay, (30amp/4 pin), I am replacing, is mounted under the Giemme Control Box.
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claypriley (original poster)

#6: Post by claypriley (original poster) »

Thanks for the tip on Copy/Paste and the auto formatting of the thread title.

I ordered the Solid State Relay: G3NA-220B-AC100-120, which is 20 amps. I found it on eBay for $20. I will go find a heat sink for it or make something by keeping it off the frame where it mounts under the control box.

Also I am insulating the boiler to protect all the sensitive, expensive electronics that sit right next to the heat. I found some aluminized heat barrier, that is adhesive backed, at Napa auto parts(2000F radiant heat protection!). I will put the reflective side inwards, and only use the sticky side to make it stick to itself where it overlaps. I still have to make a paper pattern to see where it can go...
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ira
Team HB

#7: Post by ira »

It doesn't need a huge heatsink, even a piece of 1/6" aluminum double the size of the relay might be enough. But like it all heatsinks, to small is a problem, to big is not.

claypriley (original poster)

#8: Post by claypriley (original poster) »

So, I went for it....I tried installing a solid state relay in my '96 Pasquini Livia, and I am a FN idiot. I really should have studied the wiring diagram (I can study it and it still doesn't make much sense) a lot more and asked A LOT more questions before I wired in a non-stock relay. I should have asked for a picture of how ddn installed his SS relay. I wired my new SS relay with some wire extensions and male clips so I could plug it in with outside the machine to try it out. Obviously I connected it wrong. I heard a pop, and then nothing. I turned off the machine. I didn't smell anything burnt.

I unplugged the machine, and reconnected the original functioning mechanical relay, plugged the machine back in and switched on, and there was silence,(maybe I fried something in the control box?), so of course I gave the Giemme R.L.3 Sonde control box a tap, and then the pump kicked on for a second maybe two, and then stopped. And now nothing, no heat. With the original relay connected to the original wires, I can get the machine light to come on and that's it.

So I will swap out a different functioning control box that is in another old Livia, just to test if I cooked something it the original control box. Maybe I have to send it to Boytenterprises.com for repair.

But Man!.....So frustrated!!.... I want to try wiring in a quiet relay! Please original poster ddn, of the post Pasquini Livia Safety Relay Replacement, Please Please please send me a picture of how you wired in your solid state relay, Please!

And no, I don't understand or have a modicum of experience wiring pump driven machines with control boxes... This is from the original post back in 2015: "The pinout is fairly easy to match up if you have even a modicum of electrical experience. You want to connect the big heavy gauge wires that go to the heater across the contact pins of the relay, and use the smaller gauge wires to drive the coil."

I need an actual picture of where the connections go, a drawing..... something that someone without an electrical engineers degree can understand. please...... What is a coil? and why does it need to be driven?

Anyhow I will keep scratching my head. I sure wish there was an easier way to learn about repairing espresso machine other than trial and error.... Maybe I will go to night school for my electrical engineer degree.....

"you want to connect the big heavy gauge wires that to to the heater across the contact pins of the relay" AND "you use the smaller gauge wires to drive the coil."

I see TWO big heavy wires joined together on one female pin clip, and I see ONE heavy wire on another female pin clip. Of the other smaller gauge wires, I see on female clip with one wire, and the other female clip has about 3 wires going into it.

I will try and take a picture of the original relay and its connections tomorrow and post it, but for now, I have had it, I am fried.... too much repair..
LMWDP #347

Coffcarl

#9: Post by Coffcarl »

You might have fried the smaller relay(s) on the control board. Since a tap to the board had an effect, that sounds like it.

On the gicar control board those are "finder" brand relays, with standard specs. Can replace them with one of the same spec. Easy job if you can solder.

And i would leave the original power relay in. Instead of the ssr. It's not that loud, and it looks like your $1000 dollar car ($300 espresso machine) could become a $3000 car ($800 espresso machine) pretty quickly.

Gicar RL30/4ESS/F is the other suitable control board (don't know if it is different semi-auto or auto), and you can get one for under $200 if you are lucky. Just make sure it is the 110 v one rather than the 220

claypriley (original poster)

#10: Post by claypriley (original poster) »

Yeah, I totally agree, and will stick with the stock relay for now. Sending the control box off to Boytindustries for repair. Yes there are two different control boxes, one for the semi auto machines and a more complicated one for the Automatic machine.

The 4 Livia 90 machines on my work bench are all "parts" machines (1996,1998,2000,2006) and educational course material. I figured it was an alternative to going to non existent technician training courses. I mean, how does one actually learn to wrench and trouble shoot espresso machines? become an espresso machine tech? I learn a lot here in Home-Barista.

Of course the best learning videos there ever have been are Doug and Barb's Orphan Espresso Video Vault videos "So you got yourself a Cremina". Without those videos, I never would have bought my '74 Cremina for $500 with a seized piston back in 2009. She's a dream machine.... such a beauty.

So these pump machines with all their fancy "relays" and "control box" auto fillers, it is just a learning process.... I will figure out how to wire in a SSR just to mess around........just takes time and patience, and maybe a few shocks, pops and sparks...... hahahahaha

Now if only ddn would get online and see I sent him a PM asking him for a picture of how he wired his SSR into his Livia....

Pictures of my mistake tomorrow, so we can all have a good laugh at my expense........ "Kids don't do this"

Oh and I totally want to install a rotary vane pump in the Livia that I am going to keep for myself....might have to weld on a little more frame for that though....LOL
LMWDP #347