E61 brewgroup extremely tight - why?

#1: Post by **AndersHP** » January 30th, 2023, 9:57 am

Having owned both an Izzo Vivi and currently a Rocket R58, I wonder why the e61 brewgroup is so extremely tight to operate.
In both machines I replaced the valves and partially bought new springs too, lubed everything as per instructed by guides online, but I am getting to the same conclusion:

The e61 is so tight that the lube gets worn down/removed extremely fast. Even though I am very careful not to use Cafiza more than every other month, backflushing with water alone makes everything stiff and squeaky within a few weeks.

I pull a few shots a day, and backflush only with water on a daily basis. My group gets lubed up with SuperLube, am currently going to try out MolyKote 111 but my hopes for this to last any longer are not so high.

I love the e61 for its cool retro design, and I am willing to go far to keep this wonderful piece of aesthetic metal in my kitchen

But is it really true, in order to have a well lubed and functioning e61 group, that I must disassemble and lube the cam once a month?

#2: Post by **Nunas** » January 30th, 2023, 10:38 am

I had the same problem with my Synchronika. I was using Haynes Lubri-film grease https://idrinkcoffee.com/products/hayne ... ricant-4oz on recommendation from IDC. I switched to Danco Silicone plumbers grease https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B000DZ ... =UTF8&th=1 and eliminated the problem. Be careful what grease you choose. Some are only intended for incidental contact with food/water; sometimes they contain some amount of petroleum; I think the Haynes may be like that. Likewise, all plumbers grease isn't totally human safe. Read the label and look up the specification/health rating. Here's an example for 111 https://apps.spheracloud.net/msds/viewf ... QVkKtSsNUA My understanding is that the Danco product is identical to DOW 111, and it is available at many plumbing outlets and big box home supply stores. I've been using it for quite a while and I don't glow in the dark

#3: Post by **Derryisreal** » January 30th, 2023, 11:03 am

Having tried Molykote 111, I too am inclined to change the lube I use in my Puristika. On an earlier recommendation from forum member Kolu, I am looking at Loxeal No. 4 (which is what Londinium use), or the Kluber Paraliq GTE 703. Now Kluber makes a very fine product, but the price, oh boy the price is not for the faint of heart

.
As far as Molykote goes - it is OK, but it is true that the lubricating effect leaves something to be desired. Whenever I do a chemical backflush (usually only four times an year), I disassemble the entire E61 group and thoroughly grease up every single valve, camshaft, seals, everything. Initially it feels very smooth, but after a few weeks, it gets a little less so, and when I do a water backflush, I have a tiny squeak, as I lower the camshaft lever. This squeak is not present when I am pulling a shot, so my guess is the coffee oils are doing most of the work. Also, there is a general feeling of increased resistance as I operate the lever.

https://londiniumespresso.com/store/ind ... uct_id=115

https://www.qualitybearingsonline.com/k ... e-703-60g/

#4: Post by **Nunas** » January 30th, 2023, 11:40 am

The two products Ivo recommends are both brands of plumber's grease, but would be a tad better than the DOW or the Danco, as they contain PTFE, which is also inert and therefore food safe. I've never tried either, but the PTFE might make them slipperier and more water-resistant than pure silicone. However, they are both rather expensive. BTW, DOW 111 contains trace amounts of octamethylcyclotetrasiloxane, I think as a thickener; it isn't totally food safe. As far as I know, the Danco product is pure silicone.

#5: Post by **romlee** » January 30th, 2023, 12:28 pm

All good info! Here's a twist: Our Puristika is about 9 months old now. Every month the brew lever would start to squeak. I would take apart the cam lever assembly, lube, reassemble. After 3 weeks (I backflush with water only) the squeak would begin to come back and I'd repeat the lubrication process.

The thing is, there would always be plenty of Molykote on the cam and rods with little appreciable visible wear. Despite appearances, the squeak would return. Finally, 3 days after lubricating everything again, the squeak returned. I turned my head and positioned my ear as close as I could get to the group hear without burning myself, then flipping the lever up and down repeatedly, determined that the squeaking wasn't coming from within the cam chamber. It was coming from the contact point between the pump switch (the rounded surface of the switch) on the face of the machine and the lever cam. It would squeak when the rounded tip of the switch and the lever cam lobe came into contact and the lever swiveled up or down.

A tiny drop of electric shaver lubricant (Wahl) applied with a toothpick on the rounded top of the switch eliminated the squeak and, after 3 months, has remained silent. I apply a little drop when I finish cleaning up the machine every day. Call me paranoid, but I really hated that squeak.

Maybe the lubricant will help smooth out the contact point after awhile. And my experience was just a singularity.

#6: Post by **JRising** » January 30th, 2023, 1:15 pm

romlee wrote: A tiny drop of electric shaver lubricant (Wahl) applied with a toothpick on the rounded top of the switch eliminated the squeak and, after 3 months, has remained silent.

Nice thinking. I am always blasting the little rounded buttons with an aerosol silicone grease which works wonderfully, but the clean-up is a drag.

January 30th, 2023, 2:59 pm

romlee wrote: It was coming from the contact point between the pump switch (the rounded surface of the switch) on the face of the machine and the lever cam. It would squeak when the rounded tip of the switch and the lever cam lobe came into contact and the lever swiveled up or down.

I've read about this but it's not the case on my Rocket. Right now the valves are out for a polishing, but the cam is still mounted. Moving the cam lever up and down (and activating the pump switch) makes no sound at all.

I wonder if the daily backflush with clean water should be avoided. The purpose of the backflush is mainly to clean the showerhead, right? Maybe I could just remove the showerhead and clean this daily instead...?

#8: Post by **romlee** » January 30th, 2023, 3:16 pm

Perhaps the daily back flush is overdoing it but it's a habit picked up over many years of owning a Baby Gaggia and Silvia. This is my first E61 and it's been a bit of a learning curve. The back flush doesn't seem to affect the lube cycle. Brewing 3-4 espresso daily seems to be more the case.

#9: Post by **Nunas** » January 31st, 2023, 10:17 am

At the risk of starting a bun fight

, if you use sintered metal puck screens, your group will stay cleaner and the lube will stay put for much longer. Plus, you can cut way back on back flushing.

#10: Post by **romlee** » January 31st, 2023, 11:27 am

I started using a sintered puck screen when we got the E61. It keeps the shower screen clean, for sure. And I like that.

And it probably means I don't need to back flush as often. Old habits die hard. Emphasis on old.