So there is nothing for John to do here? I for one use and love the VL. I have had issues - for sure - and have had issues with the GS3 and Lunar as well.

John doesn't have an egalitarian raffle (maybe he should - the term is from Frank Bruni trying to get into Ko). That generates excess buzz. He doesn't have strange folk that are seemingly legit but say stuff like "mfg said this" and "mfg said that". That generates excess buzz. Lots of mfr induced buzz!

Objectivity is long gone from here. It isn't the rules. It is the selective nature of their application.

AssafL wrote:Objectivity is long gone from here. It isn't the rules. It is the selective nature of their application.

What I'm hearing is the opposite. Every poster who is objecting to the vendor rules wants them not to apply to the cool, expensive, in vendors like the eternally cool La Marzocco, and the currrently cool Monolith and Versalab. The very same people who protest against the discriminatory enforcement of vendor rules on the cool vendors would be up in arms if, for instance, I decided to plug Krupps superautos at every opportunity, publishing "insider research" that 9 out of 10 coffee experts prefer Krupps superauto shots to slovenly manual shots made by the benighted peasants at La Marzocco. If you don't believe me, read this thread very closely. Apparently, even a well respected university food science lab cannot do proper research if they have the temerity to use Breville brewers.

But perhaps being consistent is not required when you have achieved the higher objectivity of proper geardom.

I think the two grinders you mention are not treated equally on the site. That was my point.

I do agree, however, that there is institutionalized bias against the super autos, the pods (Nespresso), etc.

When asked, BTW - I recommend Nespresso: People who aren't into the hobby tend to make better coffee with pods.

I was wary of that entire thread when it took place. It is very hard to be objective. How is it that prepared coffee is often rated based on the tools used to create it? Do the same people rate foods based on the knives used to cut them or ovens used to cook them?

AssafL wrote:So there is nothing for John to do here?

Versalab already has Marketplace access where they can promote their products as they wish. Like all vendors, they are not allowed to weigh in discussions in the open forums (e.g. offering purchase advice). Are you proposing we make an exception for select vendors, all vendors, or something entirely different?

AssafL wrote:I think the two grinders you mention are not treated equally on the site. That was my point.

The Monolith grinders have a lot of grassroots support. My concern is avoiding the Internet trend of astroturfing masquerading as grassroot support.

HB wrote:Versalab already has Marketplace access where they can promote their products as they wish. Like all vendors, they are not allowed to weigh in discussions in the open forums (e.g. offering purchase advice). Are you proposing we make an exception for select vendors, all vendors, or something entirely different?

Not at all. I don't have a good answer for how to achieve objectivity. I wish I had... Heck - increase skepticism one iota and I'd be so happy.

The Monolith grinders have a lot of grassroots support. My concern is avoiding the Internet trend of astroturfing masquerading as grassroot support.

Grassroots as in the old "I got a reservation in Ko next week" "aw golly!". Or "best strategies to get into the French Laundry". Marketers playbook 2003-2010. eGullet was full of those. And yet - the bloggers got in - they always got in. Let alone that some "grassroot-ers" seem to have grinders that have yet to be released to the public.

Love grassroots. But I just turned 50 (AFAIK I am now supposed to turn cynical) and thus I like the marketers and marketing efforts behind them even more. Or at least I appreciate and acknowledge their hard work.

AssafL wrote:Grassroots as in the old "I got a reservation in Ko next week" "aw golly!". Or "best strategies to get into the French Laundry". Marketers playbook 2003-2010. eGullet was full of those. And yet - the bloggers got in ...

Love grassroots. But I just turned 50 (AFAIK I am now supposed to turn cynical) and thus I like the marketers and marketing efforts behind them even more. Or at least I appreciate and acknowledge their hard work.

PR, i.e. filling the the boundary lands between news and advertising with noise, has been around a long time. The point is how much of that post-50 cynicism will you have to deploy when reading the fora? Wouldn't it be nice to do some pre-Marx, pre-Freud, naive reading once in a while?

I for one would....

Post 50s cynicism is not really required. I was taught by my father at a very tender age how to read different sources addressing the same event and filter out the facts from the PR. It is a skill which has served me well for much longer than that 50 years. This is sometimes referred to as critical reading. It is probably why the hard core fan boys of a particular process or product do not bother me. Active sales pitches(think late night TV used car salesmen) are aggravating though.

another_jim wrote:600 posts about a due date is ridiculous, even for babies, never mind grinders; unfortunately, I think that's us to blame, not vendors or anyone else.

Vendors have to stand out in a crowd of like products. It is their duty. For some reason men cogitate more about due dates than women seem to. AV forums, watch forums, etc. are full of expecting fathers....

The main forum topics in H-B served a purpose. But as the market grew - it became too noisy.

I think splitting them into manufacturer subtopics allows the mfr to participate (only in their subtopic; within strict rules prohibiting discussing competition, etc.), allows the fanfare and koombiahs to continue unperturbed, and leaves the general topic open to focused performance and enhancing performance talk.

And it avoids that rather artificial split between the "buying tips" "marketplace" "grinders or espresso machines" or even "repair". Sometimes it is difficult to think where a question should fit...

Grinding too fine with sub forums under a main forum results in dust. I can name several covering other technical topics if you would like to peruse organized confusion.

There was serious discussion over initiating the WATER forum which looks to be a success. I would not expect the same result with an attempt to make multiple sub forums under the general GRINDER forum.