Should there be a forum about water? - Page 2

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SJM
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#11: Post by SJM »

Keep in mind that even if you create a new board called "water", members will continue to put their posts where they feel they are most pertinent. And there is no saying that their sort parameters will be the same as yours.
If, for example, a person is having trouble with water in a particular espresso machine, it is very possible that that is where the thread will go. If it is part of a decision pre-purchase....well, you get the idea.

I think the solution can be found in the Search feature :-)))

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TomC
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#12: Post by TomC replying to SJM »

Couldn't agree more.
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Sideshow
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#13: Post by Sideshow »

I think that water should be it's own forum category. When I was researching my equipment, I spent about as much time researching water and devising a solution to that issue as deciding on a grinder and machine. It's not really part of any other existing category, although it touches upon several. But don't many if not all the categories also touch upon each other? Water is really a distinct domain and should receive it's own forum here.

As for clutter, more categories enhances organization. If you don't want to be bothered with water as a category, then don't venture into that forum.

As for miscategorizing a water post that tangentially relates to another category, members will learn, especially when they see a big old category that says "WATER" or something similar. Already we have questions about the interface between techniques, machines, and/or grinders, but users seem to be able to post in the appropriate place, and no one seems to complain. If a user can post their question that involves both a particular machine and a particular grinder in the right place, they can be trusted to post their question that involves water and a machine in the right place based upon which category predominates.

My vote is to make water it's own forum.

ShelbiRyan
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#14: Post by ShelbiRyan »

SonVolt wrote:I think so. I tend to get overwhelmed and frustrated when I try and research this topic.
+100 to this!

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homeburrero
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#15: Post by homeburrero »

SJM wrote:Keep in mind that even if you create a new board called "water", members will continue to put their posts where they feel they are most pertinent. And there is no saying that their sort parameters will be the same as yours.
If, for example, a person is having trouble with water in a particular espresso machine, it is very possible that that is where the thread will go. If it is part of a decision pre-purchase....well, you get the idea.

I think the solution can be found in the Search feature :-)))
I agree with Susan here that even if we had a separate category for water, discussions about water would often continue to be placed elsewhere. I like Dan's conservative approach of having only a page or so of broad forum categories.

Search works nicely, but you need to be careful - search on 'water' and you are doomed. But search on something like '+hardness +TDS' or '+filter +plumb' and you'll probably drill down nicely to the information you're looking for.
Pat
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Sideshow
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#16: Post by Sideshow »

homeburrero wrote:Search works nicely, but you need to be careful - search on 'water' and you are doomed. But search on something like '+hardness +TDS' or '+filter +plumb' and you'll probably drill down nicely to the information you're looking for.
I get this approach, but can't you say that about any topic? Devise good enough search terms and why do we even need any dedicated forums? You'd find the subject matter for which your looking. We have dedicated forums because a group of posts are bound by enough similarities to constitute a meaningful subject or theme around which you can effectively organize a discussion. As a result of these similarities, it becomes useful to browse the subject to learn more about this component of good espresso making. Water fits in nicely.

Think about it this way: every single other central aspect of good espresso has its own dedicated forum here. Equipment has the Machines and Grinders forums. Barista skill has the Tips and Techniques forum. Coffee quality has the Coffees forum. What else is there? Water quality would round out the inputs aspect of good espresso production; it's certainly a complex enough category. Just as folks undoubtedly browse the Coffees forum to learn about this aspect of the inputs, so too would people browse a water forum to learn about this supplementary (and only remaining) component of the inputs.

I'm also sensitive to the concern over having too many forum categories. However, adding one more won't render the site useless, especially when there are so many compelling reasons to include water as a discrete forum.

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SonVolt
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#17: Post by SonVolt »

Dan. We need a water forum. Make it happen.

RyanJE
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#18: Post by RyanJE replying to SonVolt »

Agreed. It could contain sticky's like Jims insane FAQ.

WHY have forums for grinders, machines, etc. separate when they are not nearly as important as the water? I wasted a year on my pour overs because I hadn't even thought it could be my water "make up" that was causing my issues.

As a newbie about a year ago, I ate up all the knowledge on here geared toward newbies. The videos, FAQ, "primers" , etc. but none on water?

AND It applies to espresso and brewed coffee.
I drink two shots before I drink two shots, then I drink two more....

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HB
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#19: Post by HB »

RyanJE wrote:Agreed. It could contain sticky's like Jims insane FAQ.
That's hilarious. I can't get members to read even the site guidelines. :lol:
RyanJE wrote:The videos, FAQ, "primers" , etc. but none on water?
Good point. All the existing forums have supporting documentation in the reviews and how-tos. There's no site water how-to. As I noted, Jim's FAQ is not a friendly read, and that's putting it kindly. Would someone be interested in starting a thread in Knockbox listing the best water references? I live in an area where the water is very good for espresso/coffee, so I haven't had the need for research (or at least I remain ignorant of the need, if it exists).
SonVolt wrote:Dan. We need a water forum. Make it happen.
As a site guideline, I create a dedicated forum when (a) there's more than 100 threads on the subject, (b) there's a regular influx of new threads on the subject, and (c) the subject is closely aligned with coffee/espresso. There's also consideration for whether there are existing sites that already serve the purpose (which incidentally, is one of the many reasons I resisted creating a buy/sell forum; CoffeeGeek, eBay, craigslist, etc).

For the first criteria, I searched on "water" (topic only). Below are the water-specific threads in the last six months:
  1. It's the Water!
  2. "Water For Coffee" book discussion thread
  3. Elektra T1 water softener advice
  4. Using cupping to assess impact of water
  5. Using cold water from refrigerator filter system?
  6. Mixing Tap and RO Water?
  7. Calcium chloride + sodium/potassium carbonate in water?
  8. Water quality?
  9. Water for new espresso machine
  10. Mod for Protecting Scales from E61 Water Release
  11. Mavea or Claris Ultra for water filtration and basement install OK?
  12. My water issues
  13. Another Water Hardness Question
  14. Water - softener vs bottled water
  15. Neglected Water - Have I harmed my espresso machine?
  16. Hot water in filter brewing
  17. Cheap TDS Water Tester
  18. Water TDS/PPM question
  19. Got an interesting email from La Marzocco "Water for Home Espresso"
  20. Water for Coffee- Quantifying Dissolved Mineral Content
  21. Mixing distilled water with mineral water
  22. Water filter replacement interval?
  23. La Marzocco Reverse Osmosis Water System
  24. Any reason not to use distilled water in my HX boiler?
  25. Water specs ok for espresso?
  26. Water Conundrum
  27. What water to use?
  28. Water too soft for espresso? Water filter recommendations?
  29. Espresso doesn't taste quite right. Is it my softened water?
  30. Any reason not to use distilled water in my HX boiler?
  31. DIY water and espresso machines?
  32. Using previously heated water for brew
So there's at least one new topic per week; not a burning subject, but not dead either.
Sideshow wrote:We have dedicated forums because a group of posts are bound by enough similarities to constitute a meaningful subject or theme around which you can effectively organize a discussion. As a result of these similarities, it becomes useful to browse the subject to learn more about this component of good espresso making. Water fits in nicely.
Therein lies the conundrum. The majority of the threads above started in the Espresso Machines forum; Coffee Brewing had a few and the remainder that had no natural home ended up in Knockbox. Thus forums represent conversation starting points, not just convenient categorizations to aid in search.

This leads to the observation made earlier:
SJM wrote:Keep in mind that even if you create a new board called "water", members will continue to put their posts where they feel they are most pertinent. And there is no saying that their sort parameters will be the same as yours. If, for example, a person is having trouble with water in a particular espresso machine, it is very possible that that is where the thread will go. If it is part of a decision pre-purchase....well, you get the idea.
The Buying Advice forum exemplifies Susan's point.

For years, there was no Buying Advice forum and members posted them in the forum they thought appropriate (usually Espresso Machines or Grinders). Because of their high volume, these queries nearly drowned out the conversations of owners who wanted to talk about actually using said equipment! So even though it's a fair amount of moderator effort, purchase/sale questions are moved nearly daily to the Buying Advice forum. I think this has worked out well since the related-but-separate conversations are now more focused.

So, should there be a dedicated forum like "Water"? Probably not. The thread selections above suggest that the topic is not cohesive enough by itself, i.e., it's not a conversation starter. Therefore, if there were to be a dedicated forum, it'd need to be narrower, e.g., "Water Treatment". That would help promote a more cohesive discussion, but there's less threads above that fit that criteria.

Anyway, the above explains why I'm not yet convinced a dedicated forum is the right answer.

To put it more plainly, I think the question this thread asks, "Should there be a forum about water?", is the wrong question. The better question, in my opinion, is "Are there articles/forum threads that represent the foundational knowledge one needs to have a non-trivial discussion?" Applied to the existing forums, the answer is a resounding YES! Applied to the topic of water? Other than Jim's often-cited Water FAQ, I'm not aware of any... and I'd further note Jim's FAQ and other references I've seen are definitely not for laymen. This leads me to conclude that the first step isn't starting a forum, it's collecting and/or writing foundational documentation that covers the basics to support non-trivial, non-repetitive discussions.
Dan Kehn

RyanJE
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#20: Post by RyanJE »

HB wrote:That's hilarious. I can't get members to read even the site guidelines. :lol:


Good point. All the existing forums have supporting documentation in the reviews and how-tos. There's no site water how-to. As I noted, Jim's FAQ is not a friendly read, and that's putting it kindly. Would someone be interested in starting a thread in Knockbox listing the best water references? I live in an area where the water is very good for espresso/coffee, so I haven't had the need for research (or at least I remain ignorant of the need, if it exists).
Who wants guidelines, we just want to improve coffee making?! :roll: ... OK, that might be the most contradictory sentence yet.

I will start a water reference thread in Knockbox. MY DISCLAIMER... I am only personally a year into this journey myself so I do not claim any level of proficiency on the subject. I will post what I think benefits the masses interested in learning more. I imagine other members like homeburrero would have significantly more to offer at an advanced level.
I drink two shots before I drink two shots, then I drink two more....