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YBeaudoin

#891: Post by YBeaudoin »

I will be buying a Decent Machine. Is there a time line for the XXXL?
What will be the difference between the XXL and the XXXL?

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decent_espresso (original poster)
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#892: Post by decent_espresso (original poster) »

statst wrote:Is the current large(r) headspace and lack of crazy high flow rates the sole two reasons why some people have been preferring the texture of classic lever machines?
My work on the mouthfeel issue has led to believe that these are the things one can do to increase mouthfeel:

- use a smaller diameter basket. This is a BIG one. Levers tend to use much smaller diameter baskets, and this really increases espresso body. There are companies making 58mm baskets that have a much smaller exit diameter. We're testing about 20 of them right now, and will be selling our favorite. Bottom basket sizes around 44m to 48mm seem to work really well to make lever like shots

- headspace above the puck. Decrease it and you get thicker shots. There are several aftermarket kits for the Decent to do this, but also in a few months we'll have our own $99 kit and all new DE1 will have the decreased headspace. We're now following the E61 standard for headspace as of DE1 v1.44 and the $99 kit will upgrade previous models, if you want it.

- fast start. We're currently peaking around 8 to 9ml/s during preinfusion, but a software update is coming shortly that brings that up to 10 to 12 ml/s. As 12 ml/s is what I measured commercial LM machines as doing, I think this issue will shortly be moot.

Sorry about the delay in replying. I just moved back to California, and it took a few days to figure out that a gardener had sliced through my buried ethernet cable, so I didn't have internet until now.

-john

ps: here are some examples of 58mm compatible baskets with smaller diameter bottoms. These will give you a huge amount of body, and more consistent extractions, at the price of less taste complexity.


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#893: Post by decent_espresso (original poster) »

YBeaudoin wrote:I will be buying a Decent Machine. Is there a time line for the XXXL?
What will be the difference between the XXL and the XXXL?
The XL uses 6.5A for steam, the XXL uses 9.5A and the XXXL will use 13A. Milk steaming time scales linearly with amperage.

13A will give you the same speed as a pro 2 or 3 group, ie about 15 seconds to heat a 8oz latte.

However, milk foam quality is not as amazing when you steam so quickly. This is also true for commercial machines, and I often see high end cafes use their steam valve to steam slower, to make tighter microfoam.

Schedule wise, we're in compliance hell right now for 13A, and I'm not yet sure when it'll ship. Maybe this summer. Going above 10A turns out to be really complicated, if you want to be safety compliant globally. That's why the XXL is shipping, but the XXXL is not. I'm also fussing about the best steam wand tip for the 13A of power, trying 3 hole sizes from 0.8mm to 1.4mm. I'm trying to figure out which tip/flow/pressure combination doesn't sacrifice steaming speed while giving me the easiest and tightest foam.

The XXXL can create 6 bar of steam pressure, which brings the boiling point of water up to 158C. That lets us get very efficient heat transfer from the 2 meter thermal coil to the water, essentially making superheated water that flashes to steam as it comes out the tip, and thus being extremely dry. Last week, I measured our electrical-to-steam energy transfer at a tad over 70%. That's just a tad over the "energy star" rating for hot water heaters (they're in the range of 67% to 70%) and well over standard heaters (58% to 60% efficient). https://www.fastwaterheater.com/water-h ... fficiency/

Other than steaming speed, the XL/XXL/XXL difference is:
- the XXL can sustain 8 ml/s at 95C, indefinitely, The XL on 110V can manage 4 ml/s at that temperature for about 30 seconds, and then speed tapers off. The XL on 240V can typically manage 6/ml permanently while hitting those temperatures. This only matters when making pour-overs, btw, as espresso does not need those sustained flow rates.
- XXL goes from cold (power off on the DE1) to hot in 3.5 minutes, and the XXXL does it in 2.2 minutes. The XL goes from cold to hot in 4.5 minutes.

-john

YBeaudoin

#894: Post by YBeaudoin »

Thank you, John,

So if I understand this right, the XXXL will take 15 sec to steam 235ml. If amperage is linear, and we go from 9.5A to 13A, this means a roughly a 37% increase in speed. So this means that the XXL will steam the 235ml in 20.5 sec. So the XXXL will save 5 sec.

I can understand this in a commercial environment. For my house, even with 4 people, I do not need this 5 sec. and will probably save more time with a dialled in workflow, or just getting an extra portafilter, and, as a bonus, I will probably get better quality foam.

The poor over option of the Decent is one of the reasons I am interested. You wrote that the XXL can sustain 8ml/s at 95c indefinitely. This means 2 min. 30 sec for a 1200ml for 4 people. I think this is more than fine, the machine will more than follow the steeping time and I do not see any advantages to disrupting the coffee bed even more with a faster flow rate.

But I am curious what will the XXXL do for poor over in terms of flow rate and water temperature VS the XXL?

GDK

#895: Post by GDK »

Great info! I take it XXXL, like the XXL, is going to be 240V only, right?

Brien

#896: Post by Brien »

I'm sure that insane steam power will make a lot of cafes happy.

I am wondering however... Suspending the DE1+ to focus on the higher end/more powerful models is great, but when (if?) do you expect to be able to shift focus back to the entry level/consumer side of things - is demand for the XL/XXL still too great?

PS: Is the tablet USB-C or mini/micro?

cibby

#897: Post by cibby »

Hey John
In your post yesterday you mentioned being on v1.44. Was that a typo or is v1.44 close to shipping? The web site seems to only reference v1.43.

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decent_espresso (original poster)
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#898: Post by decent_espresso (original poster) replying to cibby »

V1.44 is planned for July 2022. We're currently making v1.43.

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#899: Post by decent_espresso (original poster) »

GDK wrote:Great info! I take it XXXL, like the XXL, is going to be 240V only, right?
Yep, and 13 amps required for xxxl. 10 amps line for xxl.

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#900: Post by decent_espresso (original poster) »

Brien wrote:I'm sure that insane steam power will make a lot of cafes happy.

I am wondering however... Suspending the DE1+ to focus on the higher end/more powerful models is great, but when (if?) do you expect to be able to shift focus back to the entry level/consumer side of things - is demand for the XL/XXL still too great?

PS: Is the tablet USB-C or mini/micro?
I *think* I've posted to hb before, the logic of stopping to make the de1+. Namely, I can't sleep well at night making a less durable, less long lived, more likely-to-break-sooner machine, just to cut $100 off the parts cost and thus make a lower end machine at a lower price tag. I'm an engineer, and just can't do that, even if it's good business. And I'm not sure it is good business, either, btw, as lower quality isn't the "brand" quality I want and I think machine problems eventually come to cause a bad reputation.

So, we only make 1 model, really, and that's the DE1PRO, which is the best machine we can make, with the choice of quality always winning over cost. The XL is just a differently shaped DE1PRO, and the XXL is the same machine, but with higher powered heaters.

As to usb, it's used for power only, over usb-a on the de1 font panel. We've had both usb c and micro tablets at various times, with the appropriate cable provided with the machine when you receive it.

-john