BIANCA-fy your E61 Grouphead - Page 2

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speedplay

Postby speedplay » Apr 10, 2019, 1:42 am

elbertfunkleberg wrote:The pressure gauge and paddle are included in the $247 price.


Thanks, edited my post.
But it is still more expensive even if it includes the gauge.

JohnStuartP

Postby JohnStuartP » Apr 10, 2019, 5:47 am

I placed an order to see how it works on my Izzo Duetto. Fingers crossed!

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SveinHa

Postby SveinHa » replying to JohnStuartP » Apr 10, 2019, 6:53 am

Nice, let us know how it works out.

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Postby 1st-line » Apr 10, 2019, 12:49 pm

speedplay wrote:I don't know about competitive in the $$ and cents arena since the Lelit kit is more expensive ($247.38 pre-order price) than the Profitec.

And to me the wooden paddle doesn't look as nice as the Profitecs handle IMHO.
And Profitec is coming up with an update/upgrade to the handle to allow greater flow rate.


Thanks for bringing this into our conversation as I could AND would not comment on the other. Permit me to graciously clarify a few things for the community.

First, as we all know, the grouphead gets very hot. The wood dissipates the heat that rises upward. Less metal is better as metal attracts heat. In essence, the wood has some insular properties as it keeps one's fingers further away from the hot grouphead.

Second, wood costs more. It is more elegant and adds a really nice touch. This is why many clients buy wood upgrade kits for their machines, and not just the ones we sell.

Third, the Lelit manual needle valve controls the water to a full stop. This allows FULL STOP control over soak time when the Bianca has its pre-infusion programming turned off.

Fourth, and with respect to your 'opinion' about greater flow rate, this is your opinion. After 2 years of testing and being 22 years in the business, I have noticed increased blonding in extractions with higher flow. Lelit took their time to develop AND test this needle valve. It was not a rush to market as Lelit's competition is trying to do. Bianca is killing it not only in the USA, but worldwide.

As for increased flow rate, there are engineering challenges, as well. The needle needs to be strong enough. It needs to be small enough for greater precision. Making it larger 'may' impact precision.

Fifth, yes the price is also higher because there are other components in the kit. It is not just a mushroom with a little needle valve inside and a gauge. There is more to it.

Lastly, the manual brew pressure profiling is only one parameter of the Bianca. There is also the slanted coffee boiler, the external reservoir that aids in stability of the temperature of incoming water, the ability of saving space on the counter when plumbing in, and more. In other words, as one person has stated in the forums, the Bianca was quality built from the ground up. We still have the prototype in our showroom running 24x7 and we have even tried to break the machine. The next step is throwing it out of the window! :D The Bianca is truly a game-changer.

Again, many thanks for bringing your viewpoints into our conversation!
Jim Piccinich
www.1st-line.com
1st-line Equipment, LLC

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Postby 1st-line » Apr 10, 2019, 12:51 pm

another_jim wrote:Vibiemme famously manufactures their own E61 groups, slightly different and arguably more genuine than most others -- the company was founded by Valente after he left Faema.


Agreed. The shape of top of the E61 on the Vibiemme does not allow the paddle to fit.
Jim Piccinich
www.1st-line.com
1st-line Equipment, LLC

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Postby 1st-line » Apr 10, 2019, 12:55 pm

Hi All,

Thank you for the orders so far.

I am TRYING TO GET some non-Lelit branded gauges for the grouphead. In fact, I am trying to get gauges up to 12 bar and 16 bar. I think some home baristas will not desire to have the Lelit logo on front either.

IF I am successful in getting both, we will allow you to have a choice.
Jim Piccinich
www.1st-line.com
1st-line Equipment, LLC

Haskens

Postby Haskens » Apr 10, 2019, 1:16 pm

JohnStuartP wrote:I placed an order to see how it works on my Izzo Duetto. Fingers crossed!


While I feel sheepish hoping for someone else to try it on their machine, I'm really looking forward to hearing how it works out for you.

speedplay

Postby speedplay » Apr 10, 2019, 1:48 pm

Jim, just to clarify.
I want to keep my machine's max flow rate of 12 ml/s and want to use the profile valve handle to implement a declining pressure/flow profile towards the end of the extraction. I really do not want to mess with the start of the extraction but definitely want to be able to manipulate the extraction and perform a declining pressure/flow profile ala spring lever machine.
So I would start a shot with the handle/profile valve all the way open giving me 12 ml/s flow rate (or whatever it really is in practice with a portafilter and coffee puck in place) and then gradually move it clockwise to decrease the pressure/flow rate as the shot progresses. This is how I would like to use this primarily. Start at 9 bar gradually decrease to 6 bar, for example.

I'm not talking about having 12 ml/s flow rate for the entire extraction.
On my machine the max flow rate (with pump set to 9 bar) is 12.3 ml/s measured into a container with no portafilter in place (obviously not during an extraction because of the resistance from the puck) and I never have any problems with increased or premature blonding during an extraction.

I guess I could adjust the valve and handle so that the flow is at the max from the start with the handle all the way to the right and then move the handle clockwise to reduce the pressure/flow as the extraction progresses.
Being able to control the water to a full stop via the needle valve is not something I'm personally interested or will use. Plus I can do this with the lever on my machine already along with doing line-level PI. I'm more interested in being able to implement a declining pressure/flow profile towards the end of a shot (similar to what a spring lever machine does) because this is something I am not able to do with my E61 (a declining pressure profile).

And a specific wood handle will require swapping out all the other pieces to achieve a matching look (water and steam knobs, and portafilter handle and the tip of the E61 lever).

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Postby 1st-line » replying to speedplay » Apr 10, 2019, 3:44 pm

I certainly understand your reasoning and points. You may change your mind once you experience slower flow rates. I just had a wholesale roaster (who only supplies restaurants and cafes) visit us for the past 30 minutes. He had similar points as you and he even complained that I was pulling an extraction at 6 bar preinfusion for 5 seconds, 3 second soak, and then 4 bar to 41 seconds. You should have seen his face as he was saying sink shot.

He tasted the espresso, and his mouth dropped. The passing of the test was his finishing the tastey shot. I explained the slower flow rate. He left quite impressed and is now looking to sell the Bianca to his customers.
Jim Piccinich
www.1st-line.com
1st-line Equipment, LLC

speedplay

Postby speedplay » Apr 10, 2019, 4:09 pm

Jim,
I have experienced slower flow rates, I have a DE1Pro too and pull shots typically at a 0.5 ml/s flow rate into the cup and at various brew pressures.
Also, with my Izzo (plumbed in) I can do line-level PI, currently set to 2 bar (in line pressure regulator) which gives me a flow rate 6.4 ml/s without the pump being engaged. I can also pause and soak (without engaging the three way valve) and I could set the brew pressure to 4 bar and do the extraction. But I will have to completely change my grind level (much much coarser) and possibly my dose and at that low pressure I can foresee decreased crema and body and mouthfeel because of limited emulsification of oils due to the low pressure. If a certain minimum high brew pressure was not necessary to achieve this emulsification of oils into a colloidal dispersion then what is the point of the commercial espresso machine with it's ability to generate intense pressure?

But what I want to do is a declining pressure profile starting at 9 bar and declining as I go towards 6 or 4 bar depending on how the extraction is progressing. Everything else I can already do with my E61 and obviously with my DE1Pro.

Anyhow, I think it is possible to do what I want if I set up the valve as explained above (fully open) and starting the shot with the handle all the way around to the right.

I'm curious what the flow rate is at 6 bar, into a container with portafilter removed and also at 4 bar....with the portafilter and coffee puck the resulting flow during an actual extraction would be far less. But if the max flow rate of the Bianca is 6 ml/s with valve fully open the actual flow rate during a shot must be far lower than that which is fine once you are into the shot but I rather have a much higher potential max flow rate like on my E61 (12.3 ml/s) for the start of the extraction.