Why a double basket with single pulls?

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S.L.

#1: Post by S.L. »

Seems that the dose of 7 to 9 grams that a single gives corresponds just right to a 35-40ml single pull. Are folks here doing double pulls with their double baskets or just going for big ristrettos? Odd thing is I can hit 40ml with the single with no blonding, where when I try the double I always get a bit of blonding at the end of the pull. I hate to pull the lever back for another go as I can just imagine what's happening to the puck under vacuum.

I'm happy with the single singles, maybe my palate is accustomed to that from the local cafe's- just curious what the in-the-cup goal is with double (and updosed double) baskets.

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timo888

#2: Post by timo888 » replying to S.L. »

Cremina pulls an excellent single. I use the single basket almost exclusively, sometimes with only 6g. When using the double basket (dosed from 12g-14g), I pull down very gently on the first pull until there's a drop in the cup, lift gently to draw more water, and then pull to completion. Depending on the dose, the result in the cup is a normale or a normale ristretto.

Regards
Timo

Mike Panic

#3: Post by Mike Panic »

I can safely fit about 11.6grams in my europiccola double basket, depending on bean and how hard I tamp, sometimes as much as 12. 98% of the time I am yielding around 1.25-1.5oz from that.

My method has been:

Lever up for 10 seconds
Lever down till first few drips
Lever up for 5-8 seconds
Lever down for 25-28 seconds

It's the only way I can seem to get enough pressure through it to get a great tasting, amazing looking "double" shot. I will be looking at the elektra triple basket that espressoparts offeres for my 49mm pavoni at some point in the future though.

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peacecup

#4: Post by peacecup »

There is a wide range of what people consider "normal" espresso - I used to go by Illy's definition of 7g coffee to ~ 30 ml of espresso. With the double basket its more like 12-14g to 45 ml, so this tends towards ristretto. I very seldom see anyone advocating a traditional 14g:60ml doppio.

We've had a lot of discssion about 1 vs. 2 or more pulls on the home levers. For me its been a bit like trying to bail out the Channel with a teaspoon - people have become so accustomed to 12-14g, 30ml shots that they don't like the taste of the more traditional doppio. In the Lever Smackdown thread I've been trying to get a reviewer to seriously evaluate some 14g:60 ml shots on the Ponte Vecchio, but to no avail.

PC
LMWDP #049
Hand-ground, hand-pulled: "hands down.."

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timo888

#5: Post by timo888 »

For Illy the dose ranges from 5g to 8g for the single:
  • Volume: 25-30ml
    Ground coffee portion: 6.5 ± 1.5g
    Water temperature: 90 ± 5° C
    Inlet water pressure: 9 ± 2 bar
    Percolation time: 30 ± 5 seconds

S.L.

#6: Post by S.L. »

peacecup wrote:people have become so accustomed to 12-14g, 30ml shots that they don't like the taste of the more traditional doppio
I guess that's what's got me puzzled. I'll have to dig around for some different beans and see if I can pull a drinkable triple ristretto :wink: .

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RapidCoffee
Team HB

#7: Post by RapidCoffee »

peacecup wrote:There is a wide range of what people consider "normal" espresso - I used to go by Illy's definition of 7g coffee to ~ 30 ml of espresso. With the double basket its more like 12-14g to 45 ml, so this tends towards ristretto. I very seldom see anyone advocating a traditional 14g:60ml doppio.
What, only 60ml? Obviously you haven't been following this thread. :P
peacecup wrote: We've had a lot of discssion about 1 vs. 2 or more pulls on the home levers. For me its been a bit like trying to bail out the Channel with a teaspoon - people have become so accustomed to 12-14g, 30ml shots that they don't like the taste of the more traditional doppio. In the Lever Smackdown thread I've been trying to get a reviewer to seriously evaluate some 14g:60 ml shots on the Ponte Vecchio, but to no avail.
When you specify 60ml, do you mean liquid, crema, or a mixture? AndyS's brew ratios offer a much more precise way to evaluate the ratio of coffee dose to extracted liquid in an espresso.

BTW, 60ml water (w/o dissolved coffee material) weighs 60g, and 14g coffee to 60g liquid yields a brew ratio of only 23%. That's somewhere between a lungo and a cafe crema.
John

S.L.

#8: Post by S.L. »

Great links John! I won't give up on my double basket, the singles are far less dramatic with a naked p/f. Seems like I'm pulling a pretty big single but I was judging volume based on blonding. I'll try making some shots to Andy's standards and see what the results are.

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peacecup

#9: Post by peacecup »

Rapid coffee wrote this on coffeegeek, taken from the IENI:
Necessary portion of ground coffee 7 g ± 0,5
• Exit temperature of water from the unit 88°C ± 2°C
• Temperature of the drink in the cup 67°C ± 3°C
• Entry water pressure 9 bar ± 1
• Percolation time 25 seconds ± 2,5 seconds
• Viscosity at 45°C > 1,5 mPa s
• Total fat > 2 mg/ml
• Caffeine < 100 mg/cup
• Millilitres in the cup (including foam) 25 ml ± 2,5
Right, 7g:25ml, this is a 28% shot. So 14g:50 ml would fit the bill as a traditional doppio. Sorry, I said 60ml, but I was thinking in ounces, which is the regular old 2 oz doppio. By IENI standards this is NOT a lungo, its a doppio espresso. My point was that Andy's brew ratio chart somewhat REDEFINES the traditional terminology, albeit it is more precise. For example, Andy's "regular espresso, single, med., at 7g, only produces 14g of liquid - the IENI definition would be 20+g (unless the shot was all crema).

So...I'm saying that an IENI double has a lower brew ratio than does Andy's double. Because the majority of posters here on HB tend towards following Andy's guidelines, they're more accustomed to "ristetto-ish" doubles. Hence, when they taste a traditional double they find it less palatable. Its like switching from strong ale to lager. I think this is why I could not get any of the Ponte Vecchio reviewers to seriously evaluate shots in the 25% brew ratio range.


BTW Mark Prince long ago wrote an article on Coffeegeek about the traditional double. As he became a more skilled barista he had initially gravitated towards ristrettos. He later realized that it was more difficult to pull a really great double, but that when he did it was very rewarding.

PC
LMWDP #049
Hand-ground, hand-pulled: "hands down.."

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peacecup

#10: Post by peacecup »

Meet the New Drink: The Traditional Double, by Mark Prince:


http://coffeegeek.com/opinions/coffeeat ... 06-10-2003

A tantalizing quote:
So I got to thinking about it a bit more. Maybe, just maybe, back in the day when I made the gradual shift to ristretto from the normal double, I was compensating for my overall lack of artisan skill and experience in brewing the traditional espresso.
Cheers,

PC
LMWDP #049
Hand-ground, hand-pulled: "hands down.."