mivanitsky wrote:Yes you do. Come to the dark side!

We have a old KRUPS Steam Espresso Machine at our second home... I wanted to take the La Pavoni or the Breville 870XL there but my wife is against it (and my daughter already took over the Breville, lol ). So thinking about getting something that I can take with me to make a better espresso than what we get with the Krups.

We are there once or twice a year, and my wife is concerned with whatever we get, gets damaged with the lack of use... so I was thinking about something portable... and maybe something that could work to also use at work... to replace the Starbucks Verisimo machine that I have there (after the espresso that I am now drinking at home, I just don't use the Verisimo machine at all...)

boren wrote:Any conclusion about the subject of La Pavoni vs the Flair?

I'll have my thoughts on the two in a week or two once I have time with the Flair. The LPE is capable, and a real learning experience. That said, my hope is that the ways in which the Flair seems to be more forgiving will be more suitable to someone who switches coffees as often as I do.

wachuko wrote:What is this 15% discount that you speak of??

It was on Andrew's video <missing video>, but that's now a $15 off. I was able to place my order with the 15% off after that changed, but that's probably because I had already added it to my basket. When I saw that the deal changed, I submitted the order right away as I think it's the best deal I've seen on it yet.

SunSurfH2o wrote: 16.5g in and about 195 F to start. I read 160 F in the cup is on target, and that is what I got.

Unless I missed something, that video shows a 172F cylinder preheat and a 185F starting temp. Are you saying that you get a higher start temp in the kitchen (your normal prep area)?

I have played around with heating different masses of metal and pouring water into them, it seems like you could easily hit 200F if you are minimizing delay.

Before I started prepping espresso, I never really grasped how easily water looses heat to it's surroundings.

Really enjoy the videos, keep them coming.

Any suggestions for when I run this with plastic piston alongside steel?

Resulting 'spro temp is one thing, because I guess the goal is to see if the steel piston helps keep water temp up.

I'm curious if you leave the two pistons in for 30s or so, them pull them and measure water temp, if there would be a noticeable diff. I'm going to guess next to no difference, as the contact area is minimal, as is the duration.

instantkamera wrote:Unless I missed something, that video shows a 172F cylinder preheat and a 185F starting temp. Are you saying that you get a higher start temp in the kitchen (your normal prep area)?

I have played around with heating different masses of metal and pouring water into them, it seems like you could easily hit 200F if you are minimizing delay.

Before I started prepping espresso, I never really grasped how easily water looses heat to it's surroundings.

Really enjoy the videos, keep them coming.


Resulting 'spro temp is one thing, because I guess the goal is to see if the steel piston helps keep water temp up.

I'm curious if you leave the two pistons in for 30s or so, them pull them and measure water temp, if there would be a noticeable diff. I'm going to guess next to no difference, as the contact area is minimal, as is the duration.

I live above 8400 ft so 197 F is as high as I can get my start. Next time I'll do it by the stove but the water in the pot hadn't been sitting for more than 5 min after rapid boil so I think the 185 F you saw had something to do with an average of where the pot water was and the 172 on cylinder.

Resulting 'spro temp was being read by the thermometer throughout and hit 160 F but as someone mentioned the glass was preheated as well. Not sure of a better way to do it tho other than trying to preheat closer to expected target. In the video you can see the temp of espresso climbing from 113 to 160 as more of the thermometer got covered. Like I said, happy to take suggestions, only my first attempt at doing this for the boys that wanted to know what was lost in process.

Andrew, I noticed that as the cylinder evolved from prototype, Sergio added silicon so that you could handle it from the preheat to emplacement. Since the metal piston would also be preheated, it might be worth a place to grab-it by silicone too. Is this feedback you'd provide to Sergio? (I figured since you have the protos you're in closer contact.) I don't know how you held onto that at 171F.

Tonefish wrote:Andrew, I noticed that as the cylinder evolved from prototype, Sergio added silicon so that you could handle it from the preheat to emplacement. Since the metal piston would also be preheated, it might be worth a place to grab-it by silicone too. Is this feedback you'd provide to Sergio? (I figured since you have the protos you're in closer contact.)

Haha, yeah well I used to work in the kitchen making pizza and burning fingers on the brick ovens so my fingers can handle some high heat Sergio is the most responsive inventor/manufacturer I've ever come across. He takes suggestions and feedback from all, just email them to info@flairespresso.com

Incidentally, I have been using the original silicone grabber that shipped with the Flair--which was the intended solution for grabbing the cylinder before he added the sleeve. I mentioned this to him myself regarding the piston, more along the lines that he better put an extra disclaimer in his material regarding handling it because after all it is Merica--people do stupid things with products and then try to sue the manufacturer for what would be obviously a bad idea to 99.99 percent of the population. I would love to see a little sleeve around the neck of the piston, that sucker get too hot to handle without aid of something. The more ask for it the more likely he'll make the change. He proved a willing ear during the kickstarter campaign, making several changes based on feedback.

SunSurfH2o wrote:Haha, yeah well I used to work in the kitchen making pizza and burning fingers on the brick ovens so my fingers can handle some high heat Sergio is the most responsive inventor/manufacturer I've ever come across.

Funny you mention that, paisano. I do the napoletana pizza too .... but I wear welding gloves.

He takes suggestions and feedback from all, just email them to info@flairespresso.com

Will do!

SunSurfH2o wrote:I live above 8400 ft so 197 F is as high as I can get my start.

Ahh, hadn't even thought of that. What temp does your water boil at? I guess for high alt, that's a tick in the La Pavoni column. That said, visually your results look great, which really gives me hope for this with lighter roasts.

Next time I'll do it by the stove but the water in the pot hadn't been sitting for more than 5 min after rapid boil so I think the 185 F you saw had something to do with an average of where the pot water was and the 172 on cylinder.

Easily would have lost a good amount of heat in those 5 mins.

Resulting 'spro temp was being read by the thermometer throughout and hit 160 F but as someone mentioned the glass was preheated as well. Not sure of a better way to do it tho other than trying to preheat closer to expected target. In the video you can see the temp of espresso climbing from 113 to 160 as more of the thermometer got covered. Like I said, happy to take suggestions, only my first attempt at doing this for the boys that wanted to know what was lost in process.

The absolute value of the espresso temperature isn't really of concern, so long as you keep the variables the same for both (preheat or don't for both cups, etc). It's mostly just a way of determining if the piston makes any diff (i.e. all things being equal, the espresso from the preheated steel piston is +5 degrees, on avg).

Finally, it might be worth testing if NOT preheating the steel piston has an impact. I think you might be able to make a case that a steel piston in the wrong hands will only further degrade the shot (as is the case if you don't pre-heat the cylinder).

Just got my Flair. Preheat + boiling into the chamber is consistently 94-95c so temp management seems simple enough (easier than my Europiccola), and I've tried doses from 13-17 grams.

Prep and cleanup are fairly simple, though there's a bit more waste water than my pavoni in both respects.

The most obvious shortcoming thus far - for such an otherwise well thought out bit of kit - is the fact that the basket and PF are one unit/inseparable, which makes clean up tougher. I can see no obvious reason for this to be the case, and it's compounded by the fact that the "basket" (such as it is) is apparently not a basket at all because the bottom edge (around the circumference) is not seamless; it literally has a seam, and it collects grounds. This seems like a simple thing to redesign, and which manufacturing might be a pain, at this point it would be a big improvement and increase the longevity of this device.

All in all, I must say this is an interesting little gadget. Messed up shots are much more salvageable compared with the LPE - when you miss on that it's either a face pucker or astringent disaster. While I think I have pulled my personal best shot on the pavoni, I don't feel like I've actually nailed a shot yet on the flair (hell, I've only pulled 4-5, each with different grind settings, coffees, and dosage) so there is time yet. I think once I really dial this in it will be very good, and probably easier to keep in the zone.

A theme I've noticed with the Flair on all these shots and different coffees (which I have experience with on the LPE already as well as other preparation methods) is that the Flair tends to bring everything towards the middle - cutting the extremes of acidity and bitterness and rounding out rough edges or flavour "pops". It seems this will not be to everyone's taste and is a fairly dramatic departure from my experience with the Pavoni (as well as in cafes, to some degree). I figured I would end this experiment by parting with one or the other device for simplicity's sake, but now I'm not sure.

Last shot I pulled was with a 4 day old naturally processed Ethiopian Limu 'blend' (roasted by Monigram Coffee Roasters in Cambridge ON) and it was rich, smooth, and balanced at the slight loss of high end acidity (though this particular coffee is not as bright as many other African options). There's more sweetness than I have managed with the LPE, and that helps give a "berries drizzled in honey" character that I REALLY enjoy. I have had moderate success in the Pavoni with this coffee, but I definitely prefer the Flair here.

My biggest qualm with the LPE, which drove me to purchasing the Flair, is with the difficulty (in general) switching coffees, and specifically with light roasts. What is light? Well, if anyone is familiar with Pilot in Toronto, they tend to roast very light - even for 3rd wave - and I struggle with the Helor (espresso burrs) at 16-19 dots to grind (regardless of origin, in my experience). The flair has already done as good a job with those coffees as the best I've managed with the LPE, so I am hopeful.

Chris, did you ever resolve your issue? Was it a misalignment with portafilter base? It's still the only time I've heard of it happening but it seems with this redesign of metal cap it shouldn't happen ever again.

Christopher396 wrote:<image>