Yes, but guess what... my roaster is too cheap to produce a better result than my beloved roasters.

mivanitsky wrote:Now hopefully others will do the experiment and help to identify a threshold level of grinder necessary to produce Flair shots at 13g doses.

Mike, after reading a bit on the subject I even think I can predict the result: the one that will work best is the one that will produce very sharp particle size distribution (corresponding to the most expensive of all because it requires perfect parallelism adjustment of the burrs). It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Fig. 11 of Socraticcoffee's article explains why the 13g challenge on the Flair works with the Monolith: when larger particle size (present in most grinders) are removed from the distribution, it is possible to restrict a lot the flow (and hence build the right pressure in the Flair brew chamber). In regular machines this should allow using less coffee per shot (maybe one of the reason why Mahlkönig is pushing this technology and the irony of the situation here).
When the flow is too high (as in the Flair), it is that "high-end" solution... or grind super-fine (which completely change the taste)... or increase a lot the coffee dose (or the compactness of the puck to some extent, or the infusion time which thicken the puck but then start some extraction at the wrong pressure) which also affect a lot the taste. I also love experiments, but I think that focusing on the grinder is taking the problem the wrong way around.


The backward car
This is how I see the situation: it is like buying a revolutionary cheap car and realize that you can only drive it full speed in reverse gear. After some tests, my first reaction would be to say that there is something wrong with the car and I'll try to find a way to fix it.
In the present situation, first answers to that comment would be: «but why will you need to drive it full speed in the forward direction?» then: «since it is cheap car you can't expect it to be as good as other cars» and later: «the problem is that you are trying to drive that car the old way... but if, for obscure reasons, you would still like to use it as a regular car, there is a great module developed by the NASA that could be added and give you the impression that you are driving forward while in reverse gear.» Great! ... and then I should focus on that fact with people driving backward all around me.


Most of you are trying to solve the problem assuming that the conception of the machine is not the problem or can't be modified. I have the demonstration that a "regular" espresso grinder (meaning like 90% of the ones out there, not a "titan-class") is good enough to produce espresso on a machine that is properly designed (for instance on the Caravel and the Europiccola). It is not because the Caravel is much easier to operate by some kind of magic, it is because it was thought and built that way. Other levers may be a bit harder to tame but they will all work well with a "regular" grinder. Maybe not to the highest level that could be obtained with "Titan class" grinders, but good enough for me. Why should I go toward a sharp particle size distribution (understand a very expensive grinder) to use this cheap machine the way it should?


The problem is quite simple: I have an input (~14g of coffee grinded "espresso" with my Porlex) and an output (a great espresso) that I'm trying to obtain through a process (an espresso machine). I know that this [Input > Process > Output] scheme is working for 90% of the machines I've used so far (10% being the Flair).
You are questioning the input, I am questioning the machine (or the process). Again, I really don't know why I couldn't compare that machine with others or question the machine itself. I don't see on what base I should take for granted a manufacturer solution that has no sense to me (completely overweight the basket toward all espresso standards). In my mind, there is something related to the way it was built that should be reconsidered... at least as an option. The fact that it does not compare in behaviour, generally speaking, to other espresso machines is not because it is a revolution in the world of espresso or because it is so unique or so cheap, but because (in my opinion) of simple principles that were not properly thought during the conception. Things that forces the home barista to restrict his use of the machine and a complete world of flavours that cannot be reached. This machine could be so much more than that, for exactly the same price: I believe that there are simple and cheap solution that could be applied to adapt it to a "regular" grinder, but certainly no cheap solution to adapt grinders to that specific machine.

I understand that some people will like the result obtained following the manufacturer recommendations. I've tested it, that's just not where I would like the machine to be. My deception and frustration comes from the fact that it can't go where I'd like it to be, by conception. So close to the goal but just missed it. Too bad.
You are right, maybe this machine is not for me but I'm really stubborn (if you didn't realize it yet )... I will continue to explore and then I will offer it or swap it, wait for the Paul Pratt machine. I'm pretty sure this one will work with my grinders and a regular dose... but will not be portable.

OK, I know I already took too much space in that thread so I will keep it quiet unless I find something really important for this otherwise very futile subject.

So would using a different basket help your situation?
If unavailable, would adding resistance to the basket help? Mesh or paper, for instance (though other experiments might indicate the reverse effect)?

Sebastien,

Your grinder is the problem, nothing more. It's not personal. It's not you. It's not the coffee. It's not your chosen dose.

The Flair can make great espresso, with it's basket, at the dose you desire, with a well-aligned cheap grinder like the Helor 101 or Feldgrind, or with an insanely expensive endgame grinder like a Monolith. Your electric grinders may be up to the task if sharp and well-aligned as well.

Borrow a Feldgrind or Helor from someone locally, or buy it and flip it if it does not satisfy you. Or, sell the Flair, if that is too much trouble or expense. I think the extraction flaws created by partially blocking pores on the PF would be inconsistent, and somewhat unpredictable, so I would probably abandon the device at that point.

I know you like the milder espresso from a lower dose, but did you even try a Flair shot at the recommended parameters? It makes a pretty nice, mellow shot, if you dial it in a little coarser, and lean lightly into it.

If I understand correctly, there are some experienced lever users with the flair, and also some new lever users (like me!).

It would be awesome to share some prep and shot videos. I will try to do one over the weekend if possible.

Maybe we can learn better/more efficient methods and try to gauge pressure. How do you get a feel for pressure? Press against a bathroom scale like tamping?

I agree I would love to see some people's methods. This is not only my intro to lever, it's also my intro to espresso. So I'm kinda just shooting in the dark and hoping I hit something

Good to see that Sergio has not only made it possible but sparked the interest of many new espresso enthusiast. One must note, two things must happen in order for the end result to be the exceptional; aside from skill set. Your grinder must be of high quality. There is no way around it and no more important piece of equipment. I would argue, and I'm willing to bet some would agree your less likely in the long run to experience disappointment if you invest more into tha grind than the machine. For me this has been no exception. The rise in popularity as of late with hand grinders is by no mistake. The Helor 101 performs as good if not better than most electric grinders exceeding $1000 msrp. Of course, manual grinding doesn't provide much for entertainment or glamour but for $259 you run away with it. I've had some good people come along in my life that have helped me understand the espresso game better than I could have ever done with literature on the internet. I would have wound up spending $1000's in the wrong direction if it weren't for the guidance I've gotten here and personally from a few. The common denominator for exceptional espresso is and always will be the grinder. Once I discovered this it changed how I felt entirely about coffee and espresso. I don't know what I as drinking before, but it wasn't what I drink now, or even close.

BT

mivanitsky wrote:Your grinder is the problem, nothing more. It's not personal. It's not you. It's not the coffee. It's not your chosen dose.

Nothing personal either, but as Dr. W. Edwards Deming said "In God We Trust; All Others Bring Data" : how can you explain that I'm able to get good extractions with the Porlex on other levers then (namely Caravel and Europiccola) ? Have you tried 14g with any of your hand grinder (with regular adjustment for espresso, I don't want you to spend too much time on that, just for the feeling) : what's the lever resistance and result ? Does the HG-one work for instance, that will be interesting to know.

By the way, here is the review of the Porlex by Socratic Coffee: «Espresso grind: did a great job, no issues, extraction was acceptable and satisfying».
Again, not saying it's the best grinder in town... but suitable for espresso (contrary to Hario Mini, at least for me for the last 4 years).

Espresso in SB wrote:Maybe we can learn better/more efficient methods and try to gauge pressure. How do you get a feel for pressure? Press against a bathroom scale like tamping?

Yes Jason, press over a scale is the best way to gauge the pressure (at least to have a feel in the beginning). You should be around 20kg (44lbs) vertical force to be on spot for espresso. Here is the calculated pressure on the brew chamber for the Flair, Caravel and Europiccola for these conditions (assuming static case and no loss, see calculation details here).



Be careful though if (contrary to me) you have large lever resistance with your grind: the machine is supposed to break above 27kg (60lbs).

Data or sophistry. Whatever. I have multiple grinders that can do what you need. The Porlex is widely, dare I say universally, thought of here as an extremely poor grinder, in the same class as the cheap Harios. It can't make a good shot on my Slayer either. Not compared to what I can do with any of the other 7 or 8 grinders I've tried. If your experience is different, or if you don't know the difference is not something I am in a position to evaluate. Maybe you have the greatest Porlex ever. But it will never make a good shot with the Flair, as it has a much less restrictive PF basket. The basket on the Caravel functions like the pressurized portafilters on consumer machines, albeit to a lesser extent. You can make a technicality acceptable shot with preground canned Illy on a Caravel.

I wish you well, and success in your search for the perfect portable Caravel. The Flair is not it, I am afraid, at least when paired with your Porlex.

Thanks Mike, I've learn a new English word. [Sophistry]: «the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.»
I don't know what make you say that. I'm a scientist, I'm relaying on facts I can see or experiment, that's what I tried to expose or search so far. I thought it was an open discussion.
My learning curve is still improving and I have ongoing experiments. I'm sure I'll know pretty soon if I'm pathologically stupid and wrong.