Hi all,

I am very green to the world of espresso and specialty coffee, but very excited to be on this journey. I have a ROK espresso maker and a LIDO E grinder, and I'm getting ok results in the cup, but I feel like the ROK can only go so far. This has also been confirmed by others here at HB.
That said, I do like the simplicity of the ROK, and I'm leery of complex power-guzzling espresso machines that may break and be expensive or PITA to fix.
I've been following with great interest the development of the Espresso Forge, and by the experience of those here, it seems like a very capable machine in the same vein as the ROK. It's basically unbreakable with virtually no maintenance, which is perfect for me. I've been waiting patiently for the next pre-order to be made available.
But it's been a couple of months of waiting, and I'm starting to wonder about other options. I'm trying to stay very cheap until I convince myself (and more importantly wife, I'm pretty much convinced myself that I'm going to enjoy home espresso for a lifetime) that I'm in this for good. I've also pretty much decided to get the OE Pharos as well, and move the ROK/LIDO E to the office, but waiting until I can get my hands on a capable espresso machine that can take advantage of the high quality grinding of the Pharos.
Espresso Forge + Bellman stovetop steamer = ~400
Used La Pavoni Europiccola is about that much, give or take.
I've read that both can make great espresso if done right.

Any thoughts? How easy is it to maintain the La Pavoni and fix it if it breaks? Which workflow is more cumbersome?

I'd go with the forge out of those two personally. The pavoni you're going yo have to figure out how to manage temperature a lot more than an Espressoforge. I have a Pavoni, a Peppina, and a couple Caravels. The Pavoni doesn't see much use, the Caravel sees the most.

I don't have an Espressoforge to compare to to my Caravel, but I hear the shots can be similar but larger, which is quite tempting.

My only hesitation with an Espressoforge is I've heard it can't easily get hot enough for some coffees. I haven't used one so perhaps users of that machine can chime in on that.

I am biased to La Pavoni's and I am ressurecting another from the scrap heap later this month. That said you have a good grinder the Pavoni will dial in easily. If you are doing two shots a Pavoni will work just fine. Caravel I have heard great things as well. I have not used the espresso forge.

I have had experience with a Milenium La Pavoni Professional (used about a month), a Cremina (more than a couple of months) and a V1 EspressoForge (used a couple of months as well) so hopefully it helps.

In terms of simplicity/maintenance, Forge is really as easy as it gets. There's really nothing to go wrong with (except yearly replacement of the O-rings, if you use it daily). Though to be fair, a simple lever like La Pavoni isn't that much more difficult to maintain/repair but it does have more parts (element, pressurestat etc). Also, there're various iterations of Pavoni so it depends on which one you're comparing to.

Workflow wise, the Pavoni will be easier. With the Forge, it can get pretty easy/acceptable once you figure out the workflow and have your setup adapted to your favourite routine.

Brew temperature on the Forge is a touchy issue in my opinion - it might divide people into two camps. With its default preheat routine (using blind filter), you can definitely make some very good espresso. And as some of us users have tested, this will brew at the lower temperature range(~80C/175F). However, it is still very much an espresso (flavor,mouthfeel, aftertaste, intensity etc), albeit with a different flavor profile (most noticeably softer and smoother/less harsh for someone less used to straight espresso). The difference is almost akin to two different espresso made from either flat burrs grinder or conical burrs grinder. If you have that with milk, the difference is minimized further and you can hardly tell any difference.

Regardless of how it tastes, brewing at 80C is very unconventional indeed , which is why it might not be acceptable to some. Rok/Presso definitely brews at that end (in fact lower but most are fine with it). So if you are the type that go by taste alone and dial in the shot accordingly, it'll be completely fine. If you tend to be in the OCD/'number matters' camp, Forge isn't a good choice.

There's a workaround to brew at 90C+ - which is by using steam-preheat from a kettle/moka pot etc. However, you have to find the right method/vessel and can be slightly more inconsistent in my experience (less forgiving - do it wrong and you get sour shot). The potential is there, but I just have not found the right combination. Without a Scace, I can't come up with a predictable routine. So I am currently experimenting with a DIY thermofilter to set up a predictable routine that gets me consistent performance. As mentioned, the potential is there if you're willing to work on it and I'm pretty sure it can be sorted out.

On the Pavoni, if you add a temp strip and find the right routine, the temperature will be pretty consistent(within reasonable windows) as well .

Lastly, between Pavoni and Forge, if the prices are the same, I would tend to go for Pavoni for convenience sake (plus it has a steamer built in). Human (me) tends to be lazy. But there're some people that like the hands on routine of the Forge -it certainly forms part of the experience.

The Forge is attractive to me because of the design(stainless steel) and the performance is decent. And it'll always be maintenance free (just have a couple of spare O-rings around and these aren't even propietary O-rings). My Pavoni had a common rusty base issue (from previous user who didn't take care of it fully). Also, if I were to store them in the basement (for whatever reason I decided to stop drinking coffee), the Forge will come out 10-20 years later looking the same and I can make a coffee right away. Whereas with the Pavoni you might have to do a complete cleaning/restoration, getting rid of its boiler water etc, before you actually dare to make a drink out of it.

Very helpful comparison, Sam. Thanks!

The best cheap upgrade I could recommend is to get a La Pavoni double basket or another 51mm style to change the flavour/workflow (I didn't like the ridge).

You didn't mention steaming milk as a requirement so you might consider types of drinks and quantities of drinks in your search. Do you like to entertain? I'm a long time espresso only drinker but find i like a cappuccino now and then and guests often prefer them over straight espresso . Something to consider. I have a La Pavoni Millenium Europiccola and really enjoy the espressos and cappucinos. That said I believe I would enjoy owning both the espresso forge for travel and a Caravel and am considering buying them to have in addition to my La Pavoni. Enjoy your research and let us know what you find.

Thansk Gary, hope my one-man's opinion helps.

Chris (aecletec)'s suggestion makes sense too. The ridge on the Rok's basket makes tamping a nightmare and certainly make it less than optimal.

As a steam option, I'm wondering how would a Krup steam toy (cheap espresso machine) works? I recall having one and the steam performance is pretty good (as in latte-art worthy foam). The espresso quality however is pretty crap. That I thought would be more preferable to a Bellman which needs a stove for heating (takes longer too).

I have owned and rebuilt Pavoni's of various generations from my First gen '64 to the '98 I used as my main machine for a while.

While I loved them for what they were I ultimately sold them all (except my '64 to keep as a collector's item) and bought a Forge and a Cremina.

The Forge with its built in brew pressure gauge is easier to learn to pull a good shot in my opinion because you know exactly how much pressure you are creating in the brew chamber, but as others mentioned it tends to run on the cool side.

The Pavoni on the other hand tends to run on the hot side, so you have to decide which is less frustrating to deal with.

The Pavoni is definitely more user friendly and once you get the hang of it you can churn out shots much quicker than you can on the Forge, also the Forge cannot steam. The Forge is much more portable however and you can use it anywhere you can get access to boiling water. The Pavoni is what I like to call "Road trip" portable. You can relatively easily transport it in your car if you wish, but definitely not as "throw it over your shoulder and take it anywhere" portable as the Forge. The Forge requires almost no maintenance whatsoever which is also nice.

Regardless of what you choose here is the list of what I would consider "required" accessories to make quality consistent espresso with either one of them:

Pavoni:
Sightglass pressure gauge
group temperature strip / thermometer
naked portafilter
scale
ramekin
Elektra double baskets if pre-mil version


EspressoForge:
temperature strip
Fino / bonavita kettle
scale