Turbo Shots on the Olympia Cremina?

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tonejac

#1: Post by tonejac »

Anyone have any success executing Turbo Shots on the Cremina?

How do you do it?
High hopes and low expectations.

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TomC
Team HB

#2: Post by TomC »

You're likely not going to be able to create the accelerated flow needed to get where you want to go. The Cremina, as amazing as it is (better than many more complex pump machines) won't be able to provide the flow needed for what a Turbo Shot is. It's like asking a goldfish how high it can jump. The dipper designed Cremina suits a particular style of espresso and it does it better than pretty much anything I know. But it's important to pair your expected outcome of coffee drink to what tool is best at delivering it.
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pham

#3: Post by pham »

I disagree with Tom that a Cremina cannot do turbo shots. I pull them everyday on a Faema Faemina, which is another vintage lever that actually has less flexibility than the Cremina. Levers can actually provide higher input flow/water-debit than any other machine, including a rotary pump. Here's how I'd approach it on a Cremina, and it's dead simple. Grind way coarser than comfortable, dose 12g, raise the lever as usual, then pull softly for 2-5 seconds until first droplets. Pull the shot as normal, and get an output of 30-36g in 15-20 seconds after the short pre-infusion. The message from Michael Cameron and Professor Hendon is clear, in that it's not a specific recipe for every single coffee, but rather to downdose, grind coarser, and pull a bit longer for a higher and more even extraction. This is not a new concept, it's just EKspresso optimized to be used with any grinder. Any machine and grinder can pull turbo shots, in my opinion.

pizzaman383
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#4: Post by pizzaman383 »

What is a turbo shot?
Curtis
LMWDP #551
“Taste every shot before adding milk!”

walr00s
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#5: Post by walr00s »

https://strivefortone.com/2020/09/19/lo ... -espresso/

It's not as talked about on this forum as I would have hoped. I only have a rudimentary grasp of the modeling. I've been experimenting with applying the conclusion for a few months and my results are...mixed. Any coffee that doesn't stand up to milk, so most of the lighter roasts I like, doesn't come out well for me this way. Darker stuff that punches through milk and also an Ethiopian Natural that I really like that is almost blindingly berry flavored comes out pretty nicely when I pull 6 bar 15s 16 in 35-40 out. Are any of them better than more traditional shot profiles? Eh, couldn't say, the med/dark and berry ones come out pretty comparable.

jmotzi

#6: Post by jmotzi »

As @pham hinted at above - Longer (higher volume) shots can be made by increasing the porosity of the puck. For example grinding more coarsely or lowering the dose. When the lever is raised, water at ~1 bar will begin to saturate the puck (this is ambient pre-infusion). While this is happening (remember - the lever is up), additional water will enter the chamber replacing the water now in the puck. This will continue until the lever is moved downward. The less resistance offered by the puck, the more water will flow into the puck and be replaced in the chamber. In an extreme case of very coarsely ground and very lightly tamped, you could even make pseudo drip coffee this way :? The more resistance offered by the puck, the less water will infiltrate the puck and the total shot volume will be lower. Once you move the lever downward, no more water will enter the chamber and the final output from that point will be fixed. You can choose any pressure you desire when moving the lever downward.

JM
LMWDP #662

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TomC
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#7: Post by TomC »

pham wrote:I disagree with Tom that a Cremina cannot do turbo shots. I pull them everyday on a Faema Faemina, which is another vintage lever that actually has less flexibility than the Cremina. Levers can actually provide higher input flow/water-debit than any other machine, including a rotary pump. Here's how I'd approach it on a Cremina, and it's dead simple. Grind way coarser than comfortable, dose 12g, raise the lever as usual, then pull softly for 2-5 seconds until first droplets. Pull the shot as normal, and get an output of 30-36g in 15-20 seconds after the short pre-infusion. The message from Michael Cameron and Professor Hendon is clear, in that it's not a specific recipe for every single coffee, but rather to downdose, grind coarser, and pull a bit longer for a higher and more even extraction. This is not a new concept, it's just EKspresso optimized to be used with any grinder. Any machine and grinder can pull turbo shots, in my opinion.

Ahh, I see where we disagree. I'm not arguing that the Cremina won't fill the basket rapidly, but my point is once you're past the inlet of the group with the piston, your flow is determined only by the diameter of the group and volume of water above it, inversely related to the pressure applied.

If someone wants to really grind that coarse and keep the lever lifted for a prolonged time, then I guess you'll get what you're after. I just wouldn't use a manual lever in that way, since I'm looking (subjectively) for mouthfeel, body and texture, not thin, foamy moka pot style coffee.
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pham

#8: Post by pham »

TomC wrote: Ahh, I see where we disagree. I'm not arguing that the Cremina won't fill the basket rapidly, but my point is once you're past the inlet of the group with the piston, your flow is determined only by the diameter of the group and volume of water above it, inversely related to the pressure applied.

If someone wants to really grind that coarse and keep the lever lifted for a prolonged time, then I guess you'll get what you're after. I just wouldn't use a manual lever in that way, since I'm looking (subjectively) for mouthfeel, body and texture, not thin, foamy moka pot style coffee.
Makes sense. My thoughts are that the desired mass flow-rate on smaller portafilters scales down. Eg. I'm using 12g in a 51mm basket, equivalent in bed depth to dosing 15.5g in a 58mm VST (non-tapered wall). Thus, output flow rate would be lower, but it's still 1:3 in 20 seconds. Re: texture, yes with my grinder I'm currently running a lower TDS than I would if I pulled a bit slower and shorter. I do know some folks who have gotten ~10 TDS in a 1:2.2 ratio using this method. Even if different compounds are extracted, I struggle to think that 10 TDS of anything would be "thin and moka-pot like". As an example, this would be a similar TDS to if you pulled a shot at 18:32 at 18% EY; a modern ratio but not extremely long. I guess my point is that these things are worth trying just to see if you like it, and the Cremina is a wonderfully versatile machine.

jmotzi

#9: Post by jmotzi »

TomC wrote: ... I'm looking (subjectively) for mouthfeel, body and texture, not thin, foamy moka pot style coffee.
pham wrote:...I do know some folks who have gotten ~10 TDS in a 1:2.2 ratio...
FYI - Here are my latest 12 Cremina shots, sorted by brew ratio in the range 2.2 to 2.8 - I don't consider these thin and watery, but the beauty is in the eye (mouth) of the beholder.



All of these were 10 sec ambient pre-infusion, followed by 10 sec applied pre-infusion at 2 bar, then shot pressure and ramp down. Most are different coffees, but a couple are repeats. All were expertly roasted (Facsimile, Sey, Elixr).

JM
LMWDP #662

vit

#10: Post by vit »

Are shots with preinfusion that long still turbo shots ?