I think it is wonderful to see someone selling newly manufactured versions of an open-boiler lever, which remains one of the simplest and most controllable forms of espresso machine ever made. The price is not that surprising given the inherent challenges of small batch production, but it does make it hard for him to sell many models in a world in which lots of vintage machines can be had for much less. But unlike some modern manufacturers of home levers (e.g. La Pavoni), at least he is trying to maintain the quality standard of the golden era machines. A new Pavoni goes for at least double what a first-gen machine costs these days, so with that as a reference (and the small-batch problem in mind), the ES3's pricing makes reasonable sense.

The blurry pics are a huge tease, but I remain curious to see the final design of the countertop model. Maybe we could talk him into a horizontal bar handle, both for the superior ergonomics and as an homage to the Caravel?

[creative nickname wrote:Maybe we could talk him into a horizontal bar handle, both for the superior ergonomics and as an homage to the Caravel?

I think that the ES1 had a horizontal bar handle.

Shared today publicly. I quite like it.

I. Want. The. Strietman. Countertop. Model.

Looks really great. Interesting to see what the price will be compared to the wall version. But definitely a really interesting machine. A modern version of the vintage open-boiler machines is something I have been waiting for. Didn't really like the Strietman ES3 because of the wall mount, but this one. This I want.

Marcelnl wrote:@bluecold: yeah well, as if Strietman has a machine that will sell in enough numbers to make more industrialized machining cost efficient to begin with. Just consider all the hours of research. Not sure where you come to the conclusion that his margins are high. Fact is that there is quite a difference between Taxatioj of large companies companies like Tata VDL et al. perhaps you are also aware why many large international firms have a PO box tax evasion construction based in the Netherlands?

The thread was about Strietman, and even though his machines are not up my alley I have no issue with his pricing.

The pricing of Strietman is relevant to Strietman and I stated that your explanation for the high prices is not sufficient. I never came to the conclusion Strietmans margins were high just that his product wasn't designed for a high productivity workforce. Which is a choice of the designer, but adds up to an expensive product when made in a first world country. You made it seem as if it's impossible to make affordable stuff here, which is plainly untrue. You can verify that yourself if you go outside the city centers.

In any case regarding taste, I saw the Strietman today at the Amsterdam Coffee Festival and it was a really slick thing in reality and the coffee pulled (Bocca, ground with a Mazzer Mini) was really quite excellent, even after I had a lot of coffee already. Also I can't imagine a device so simple and basic being not barista-limited. Also, I talked to him (friendly, forthcoming guy) and he said he was currently doing 50-piece batches of the ES 3.

Bluecold wrote:The pricing of Strietman is relevant to Strietman and I stated that your explanation for the high prices is not suffcient. I never came to the conclusion Strietmans margins were high just that his product wasn't designed for a high productivity workforce.

Roeland, I mean no disrespect, but you really don't know what is actually involved in manufacturing something. All examples you list are companies producing huge quantities of a product. They don't make 50 or 100 pieces, they make hundreds of thousands...

Anything manufactured in small quantities like Strietman will cost more regardless of whether its made in China or in USA or Netherlands. It has nothing to do with design for "high productivity workforce", whatever that means, but with economies of scale. On small quantities your cost is labor cost and setup time for each different part on machines. When you produce in large quantities then things change since you can optimize the process. Whole machines can be dedicated to producing just single part minimizing setup and labor cost. You can get better prices on materials... You can choose different method to produce part since you need lot of them, for example you don't have to do machining but can cast the part.

So it has nothing to do with how something is designed rather with low number of units produced because market for devices like this being relatively small...

I do not think his machine is expensive at all given the quantities its made in and where its made...

I would be more concerned with how one goes about preheating the body of the unit...looks beautiful but there:s probably a very quirky process to making it work out as desired...

hehe...not that I am not already being quirky with my Pharos and Pavoni, but thats not the point.

Back to the machine, I like it. I would prefer the PF handle to have a bit more curves and it seems a bit strange being so thin but I'm sure that's just because this machine is so unlike anything out there -- which is awesome

ds wrote:Roeland, I mean no disrespect, but you really don't know what is actually involved in manufacturing something. All examples you list are companies producing huge quantities of a product. They don't make 50 or 100 pieces, they make hundreds of thousands...

Anything manufactured in small quantities like Strietman will cost more regardless of whether its made in China or in USA or Netherlands. It has nothing to do with design for "high productivity workforce", whatever that means, but with economies of scale. On small quantities your cost is labor cost and setup time for each different part on machines. When you produce in large quantities then things change since you can optimize the process. Whole machines can be dedicated to producing just single part minimizing setup and labor cost. You can get better prices on materials... You can choose different method to produce part since you need lot of them, for example you don't have to do machining but can cast the part.

So it has nothing to do with how something is designed rather with low number of units produced because market for devices like this being relatively small...

I do not think his machine is expensive at all given the quantities its made in and where its made...

This is all assuming its being priced according to what it costs to make, vs what people are willing to pay. It's positioned as a high end product, if not a veblen good, and priced and marketed accordingly.

I personally don't put a lot of premium on where something is made - quality has more to do with how, not where something is made.

ds wrote:Roeland, I mean no disrespect, but you really don't know what is actually involved in manufacturing something. ...

With an opening sentence like that, you're raising higher expectations than going all economics 101 on me. Please don't belittle me like that.