Pros & Cons - Londinium-R vs Izzo Alex Leva - Page 5

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espressotime

#41: Post by espressotime »

Espresso_Monkey wrote:I really appreciate all the insights from our experienced HBers!

Let me ask another, maybe more contentious question:
I was reading on an Australian coffee forum that some lever users didn't like the results of light roasts on their equipment.
Is it true that levers are less suitable / forgiving / flattering for these edgy 3rd wave roasts?

I did read the thread on the flexibility of Londinium's programmable PI vs manually regulating this (e.g. on Bosco group).

Your experiences with either of these beautiful machines?
I can say that I really hate light roasts .
But others prefer them.
From what I know light roasts love longer pre infusion.
Some even say that you need adjustable pre infusion pressure to really get the most out of these roasts.
If that's the kind of coffee you like maybe the LR would be the more sensible choice for you?

LuckyMark

#42: Post by LuckyMark »

espresso Monkey, you may want to give some thought to back up service. I think both are excellent machines and you will be happy with either.

The back up service is a devoted individual versus a company. A company or their employees will probably never answer a query at 23.00, where by all accounts Rheiss might. A company usually has multiple people (Izzo definitely does) so if the one individual was injured or absent you have alternatives. Or possibly if you found the only support person and you didn't hit it off, you have alternatives.

LuckyMark

#43: Post by LuckyMark »

truemagellen wrote:what type of pvc? our home Depot type store pvc is more brittle and crumbles over time
Truemagellan, in Australia the more durable plumbing pipe is called pressure pipe. It is thicker and more flexible than regular pipe. Not sure if the name is the same in the US but the function is the same. Used when the pipe is under pressure, in contrastto regular pipe which is generally used for gravity fed drainage like from a sink, bath, etc. Tell the home depot guy that and he should rustle you up the right stuff.

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JohnB.
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#44: Post by JohnB. replying to LuckyMark »

Schedule 40 is the thicker pvc used in the U.S. Readily available anywhere plumbing fittings/pipe is sold.
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def

#45: Post by def »

Espresso_Monkey wrote:I really appreciate all the insights from our experienced HBers!

Let me ask another, maybe more contentious question:
I was reading on an Australian coffee forum that some lever users didn't like the results of light roasts on their equipment.
Is it true that levers are less suitable / forgiving / flattering for these edgy 3rd wave roasts?

I did read the thread on the flexibility of Londinium's programmable PI vs manually regulating this (e.g. on Bosco group).

Your experiences with either of these beautiful machines?
I am no expert on this subject, but I will tell you what I think anyway. Firstly, I prefer medium to dark roast for espresso, but I also like to switch coffees frequently for variety and because if I drink dark roast too many days in a row, my taste buds get kind of burned out on the flavor and I crave something lighter. The same is true if I drink light roast too many days in a row. I do not like burnt tasting coffee, so I don't buy traditional Italian coffee as often as I once did. Maybe six times a year I will buy something like Vivace Dolce, Red Bird, or Counter Culture 46. I really like Black&White Roasters The Classic which they label medium-dark, but I consider it a medium roast.

Light roasts are more difficult to extract evenly. A good grinder helps, but prep and the right basket is crucial. For example, I and several others find it easier to get even extractions with Espresso Parts HQ baskets than VST baskets. For my Alex Leva, I get great extractions with the LF baskets.

I believe the basics such as even extraction, thermal stability between shots, consistency in grind, and ability to set exact brew temperature is far more important than flow profiling or adjustable PI. However, if you have the basics, then probably adding advanced features on top of this is helpful for light roasts. I think for medium to dark roasts, since these coffees are more forgiving, advanced features are less of an advantage.

If light roasted espresso is your thing, then perhaps a fancy grinder paired with a lab type of machine such as a DE or DC Mina would better suit your needs. However I don't think variable PI is a feature that trumps excellent thermal stability. But in fact, any spring lever machine provides two types of variable PI built-in -- 1) variable time of PI with lever all the way down, and 2) manual control of the lever on the way up. A commercial spring lever machine is incredibly versatile -- from light to dark roasts, you will get very good results if you have a good grinder, the right brew temp, and good thermal stability.

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truemagellen

#46: Post by truemagellen »

This is not discussed much but you can during preinfusion disable boiler pressure (after group is filled) by unscrewing preinfusion trigger bolt.

Then let it bloom for a little while and then lift lever to finish shot.

This is close to Scott Rao's maximum extraction method and works for very light roasts due to the temp stability of the LSM group.

It would require a very fine even grind well beyond what you are doing now.

Nick111

#47: Post by Nick111 »

LuckyMark wrote:espresso Monkey, you may want to give some thought to back up service. I think both are excellent machines and you will be happy with either.

The back up service is a devoted individual versus a company. A company or their employees will probably never answer a query at 23.00, where by all accounts Rheiss might. A company usually has multiple people (Izzo definitely does) so if the one individual was injured or absent you have alternatives. Or possibly if you found the only support person and you didn't hit it off, you have alternatives.
+1
This was the most important reason I chose Izzo over Bosco. Artisanal /one man show vs company.
But then again this is only me.YMMV.

LObin

#48: Post by LObin »

I drink a variety of roasts (you gotta love single dosing!) from light filter roasts to medium roasts, with a few italian roasts form time to time.

On my Londinium 1, just like on a dipper (i.e: Izzo, Bosco, Pro800) the preinfusion happens at boiler pressure. Some coffee need updosing but pretty much every light roasts I pull do better with an active preinfusion (holding the lever at catch point, which is around 3 bars).

That's not something that I often do but I can even grind very fine if I do a blooming phase (at boiler pressure) after an initial 3 bar PI (active) and pull a longer shot.
Here's an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yh-8Qt9IeA
This shot runs for about 50 seconds after releasing the lever. It should be over extracted. Crema should be dark and taste should be very bitter. There should be evidence of blonding... It was in fact delicious! Crema was light and consistent. The shot had great mouthfeel and sweetness.

That was the roast btw:


So, can a traditional lever (Izzo in this instance) extract good shots even with modern roasts? Yes. Absolutely. But the prep must be spot on and it will probably require some "out of the box" manipulations.

The LR was design to better answer the later trends in coffee roasting. It can extract anything from the light underdeveloped Nordic roast (why would someone want to drink underdeveloped coffee??) all the way to traditional dark Italian roasts, simply by adjusting the preinfusion pressure (and temperature). The prep will still need to be spot on but only changing the PI pressure makes a big difference in the extraction.
Have you seen this video by Frans Goddijn? It's cool to see the different lever grabs and resulting shot...


You should absolutely try both of these before making a decison so you don't eventually end up wishing you had chosen the other machine (because to be honest, I don't see how you can be disappointed with any of these two). If you are a fan of modern roasts, the extra features and PI control of the Londinium R makes it a solid contender, no doubt.


Cheers!
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IamOiman
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#49: Post by IamOiman »

Nick111 wrote: This was the most important reason I chose Izzo over Bosco. Artisanal /one man show vs company.
I would say Bosco follows most large Italian companies, open during weekdays and closed on weekends (or open Saturday closed Monday) from 0930 to 1800 with riposa thrown in. The longest I've had to wait for a response from Bosco was during Ferragosto in the summer but generally I get a response within a business day otherwise.
-Ryan
Using a spice grinder violates the Geneva Convention
LMWDP #612

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JohnB.
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#50: Post by JohnB. »

Nick111 wrote:+1
This was the most important reason I chose Izzo over Bosco. Artisanal /one man show vs company.
But then again this is only me.YMMV.
Bosco is actually run by a woman these days & she has several employees. The old man was still coming into the shop last time I asked Roberta but that was a couple years back.
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