It is definitely time to get the Ponte Vecchio Review going! I'm answering an awful lot of questions on several threads in different forums!

Just have to remember to not tamp very hard or that lever will crawl back upwards, if at all.

Prof, is the Sama still stalling frequently? I had a little stalling issue last week with fresh beans, because I switched grinders. The one I was using seems to produce a less even grind, with more fines and some coarse - I think the fines tend to choke the spring lever.

Have you tried having one grinder designated to the Sama? I have a couple that work just right when they are at their finest setting, so its usually easy to keep it dialed in.

I am coming to the conclusion that the Pavoni produces the best coffee when I don't grind very fine and exert too much pressure. This "sweet spot" of pressure may not differ much from the pressure produced by the spring lever.

PC

peacecup wrote:It is definitely time to get the Ponte Vecchio Review going! I'm answering an awful lot of questions on several threads in different forums!



Prof, is the Sama still stalling frequently? I had a little stalling issue last week with fresh beans, because I switched grinders. The one I was using seems to produce a less even grind, with more fines and some coarse - I think the fines tend to choke the spring lever.

Have you tried having one grinder designated to the Sama? I have a couple that work just right when they are at their finest setting, so its usually easy to keep it dialed in.

I am coming to the conclusion that the Pavoni produces the best coffee when I don't grind very fine and exert too much pressure. This "sweet spot" of pressure may not differ much from the pressure produced by the spring lever.

PC

Good questions, PC. The Trosser is set pretty correctly for both the Sama Export and the Gaggia. But with the Export I have to go really easy on the Thor tamper so that two shots come out (usually in 3 pulls) in a minute or less, using 14-15 grams of grind. Fresh roast definitely must have less tamp. I get great results on the Export with a firm tamp when using the single baskets.

I've heard it said that the Pavoni (and Gaggia) need a fine grind and firm tamp to get the good stuff out. That seems to bear out with my experience, so far.

Interesting thought about the "sweet spot" being similar to a spring lever. Obviously there's more at work here. The basket size makes a difference as well as the thermal capacities of the two different sized groupheads.

Finally, I share your thoughts about the steamer on the Pavoni. I have to work harder on the Gaggia steamer than when steaming on the Export.

Oops, one quick question about tampers: convex vs flat, which is better for the Pavoni?

Prof, if I'm grinding fine enough to choke with more than a minimum tamp I will usually loosen up a 1/4 turn or more.

I've tried timo's method of very fine grind/barely tamp, but I have not gotten results to my liking so far. I started out grinding as coarse as necessary to get 2-3 pulls in <40 secs. with a very hard tamp. I've since tightened the grind and lightened the tamp a bit, but still giving a firm tamp, resulting in solid pucks.

I almost never use the single basket - for some reason I just always go for the double, mainly because I prefer a little more volume. Never really experimented much with two pulls on the single basket, but in theory that would be a classic solo - 7g, 1-oz shot.

I am still at a loss to get good foam with small quantities of milk on the Pavoni. Today was another failed attemp. By the time I get a decent foam its too hot for my taste. I probably need to read some threads on this.

I have no experience with tampers other than flat.

PC

Mark Prince on coffeegeek is writing a series of essays about tamping - might be worth a look. He's presenting some complex ideas.

The whole coffee world seems to be searching for quasi-scientific ways of evaluating methods, equipment, and coffees. There are two very serious potential problems with this:

1. if one is to draw statistically valid conclusions, experimental designs need to be well-planned. This basically means lots of replication, i.e. testing the exact same thing over and over, BUT,

2. The ultimate response variable is usually taste, and in my opinion this is completely non-replicable. Not only does every individual's tastes differ (i.e. between-subjects), but I believe the taste experience of an individual for any given shot of espresso (replicate) is dependent upon a whole suite of variables that cannot easily be replicated. Time of day is one very obvious one, but the list is potentially infinite; how well one slept, what s/he had for breakfast, mood, etc. This is all within subject-variation, and as much of it as possible should be controlled for. Statisticians have ways of dealing with some of this, but if coffeegeeks plan to actually represent the results of their tests as "objective" they have a lot of work to do to meet the scientific rigor.

So, I believe those seeking scientific/statistical methods of rating/ranking equipment, methods, coffees, have a long and very hard road ahead.

Those of us who view espresso as a gateway experience, perhaps seeking nirvana, but realizing that there are many, non-linear, paths by which to reach it, shall always treasure this cup while anticipating the next.

PC

"Those of us who view espresso as a gateway experience, perhaps seeking nirvana, but realizing that there are many, non-linear, paths by which to reach it, shall always treasure this cup while anticipating the next."

Nicely expressed, peacecup!

My prior espresso machine was a fine Isomac Zaffiro. So many factors were critical to an excellent cup, including a narrow band of optimum temperature, a precise dose and tamp with a specifically shaped convex tamper. I learned how to work the machine, but I was necessarily paying at least as much attention to the process as to the cup.

With the arrival of my spring lever, the whole process of making espresso was greatly simplified, and my focus is now on enjoying excellent coffee. For me, the move to a spring lever has greatly improved my overall enjoyment of espresso.

Grong, thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you've found the spring lever as enlightening as I have. Have you tried your hand at a hand grinder? Sounds like something you might like:

Hand (grinder) Jive - a photo essay

BTW, I have solved the La Pavoni steaming problem for now:



Right, I dug the old Señor Caffe, with its single-hole steam wand, out of storage here at the ecology lab. I've been enjoying nice dry microfoam with my excellent La Pavoni espresso all day, something that had thus far eluded me. Someone must have had a reason for putting the three holes on the Pavoni wand facing opposite directions, but I've found it rather difficult to reconcile this with the little I know about frothing. And because I am not particularly interested in purchasing a dairy farm, nor do I have stock in any organic milk companies, I decided to cut my losses in terms of very, very hot pitchers of milk completely lacking foam.

Now, I'll admit it took me a little while to go from the single-hole tip to the four-hole tip on the Ponte Vecchio, but La Pavoni seems to have created the ultimate challenge for the microfoam enthusiast.

PC

Ooh, I would love to try a hand grinder!

Just over a year ago with my pump machine I measured my beans for each double using a gram scale.

Now I just use two rounded scoops with my spring lever, with an overall improvement in coffee satisfaction.

Some discussion on this thread:

La Pavoni Europiccola - one pull too little, two pulls too much

led me to experiment with multiple pulls on the La Pavoni today. The results were quite good so far, and I'm unconvinced that the Pavoni need be a one-pull machine. Taking a second or even third pull can bring the espresso volume right up to the 15g, 2-oz traditional doppio.

PC

Just returned back from a week away from the Pavoni. I pulled some great shots on the Ponte Vecchio, tried a few at local cafes, and even a do-it-yourself automatic at the hospital (I put the paper cup under the spout after flow started and removed it before it blonded - it was a struggle, but I drank it.)

I just pulled my first Pavoni shot in a week - in a 6-oz cappuccino. I'm using Cafe D'Arte Fabriano, alderwood roasted espresso. It was other-worldly.

I'm sure after years of practice on each, one might develop a favorite between a manual La Pavoni vs. a spring Ponte Vecchio. As far as I'm concerned both are capable of providing even a modestly-trained home barista (i.e. me) a transcendental experience.

I'm ending this thread now with the final conclusion that I would be very happy with either a Pavoni or a Ponte Vecchio. Very likely the same could be said for most, if not all, of the other home levers. I'm looking forward to trying them all as time goes on.

Thanks to the very special home barista that made this thread, and my wonderful La Pavoni experience possible!

PC