Paul_Pratt wrote:It will not fit, I am just using a standard lever group piston seal that we sell for the modern levers.

Darn, thanks anyways for the info Paul! And thanks David for the tip

Paul,

It seems that on the flair (which I have on the way to use while I'm waiting for your machine to be released) has a max temp that people can achieve around 92c (from what I've read) and that is with double soaking the reservoir in boiling water and pulling the shot immediately afterwards, etc. How does your machine test so far temp wise? Can it achieve consistent terms at around 203f (95c) fairly easily if desired? I'm sure the portafilter will need to be preheated, but will it be a double soaking and run to make the shot like process like the flair i or will it be easier to achieve higher temps?

Thanks

I'd wager it should be easier to get the flair up to temp to be honest, the size of the portafilter and the metal handle might make it cumbersome to soak and difficult to handle afterwards. Other that that though, you are probably looking at the same temps, roughly.

For what it's worth, I tested this with stuff I have around the house when I was considering the flair. I had no issues getting a small moka pot base up to the point where water poured into it was ~96c (and stayed above 95 for close to 30s). the flair should do better with the insulating sleeve and the fact that it's slower to heat up and cool off.

Madman13 wrote:Paul,

It seems that on the flair (which I have on the way to use while I'm waiting for your machine to be released) has a max temp that people can achieve around 92c (from what I've read) and that is with double soaking the reservoir in boiling water and pulling the shot immediately afterwards, etc. How does your machine test so far temp wise? Can it achieve consistent terms at around 203f (95c) fairly easily if desired? I'm sure the portafilter will need to be preheated, but will it be a double soaking and run to make the shot like process like the flair i or will it be easier to achieve higher temps?

Thanks

To be perfectly honest I have not sat there measuring the temps. I've been using my prototype now for a year and it can make good coffee and you just know when the temp is too low. I've been waiting until lots of changes had been made before actually testing and measuring and that time has now come, so I will play next week.

instantkamera wrote:I'd wager it should be easier to get the flair up to temp to be honest, the size of the portafilter and the metal handle might make it cumbersome to soak and difficult to handle afterwards. Other that that though, you are probably looking at the same temps, roughly.

For what it's worth, I tested this with stuff I have around the house when I was considering the flair. I had no issues getting a small moka pot base up to the point where water poured into it was ~96c (and stayed above 95 for close to 30s). the flair should do better with the insulating sleeve and the fact that it's slower to heat up and cool off.

Sorry I am really not up to speed on the flair device. My Robot has a basket and a portafilter. If you are going bottomless, as I suspect most HB people would, the basket only contacts the portafilter at the very top where it rests. So transfer of heat from basket to portafilter is not really an issue, I just warm the basket only. See the photo that shows the gap between the baskets and the portafilter. The handle does not get hot.



If using the portafilter with the spouts then yes I would warm the entire portafilter/spout/basket assembly.

But it's worth noting that expecting Slayer/Strada flat line temperature profiles on a) a small home lever machine and b) a machine that costs probably 60-70 times less is not possible. Lever machines tend to have a declining temperature profile throughout the shot.

Interesting design on the bottomless portafilter, seems like a good design only having it attached/touching on the top.. Kind of reminiscent of those double insulated water bottles. It should help not having a large a mass of metal drawing off heat from the hot water I would think. Looking forward to testing data!

It strikes me that the type of classic machine that inspired the Robot, the Baby Faemina, would generally be used with a darker roast. Although I expect that Paul has designed the Robot to accommodate today's tastes for lighter roasts that requirer higher brew temperatures I would be interested in seeing which coffees can be brewed without pre-heating. A Sumatra roasted just into the start of second crack comes to mind, where I would generally pull that at 175°F/79°C. I like to tune coffees and techniques that marry best with a new brewer. The danger in marketing, I suppose, would be to have people start to claim it's only optimal for darker roasts, which would not be true at all. I like Paul's method of only needing to heat the basket for some coffees, because a bottomless portafilter only minimally cools the brew chamber where it locks into the group.

Paul_Pratt wrote: Sorry I am really not up to speed on the flair device. My Robot has a basket and a portafilter. If you are going bottomless, as I suspect most HB people would, the basket only contacts the portafilter at the very top where it rests. So transfer of heat from basket to portafilter is not really an issue, I just warm the basket only. See the photo that shows the gap between the baskets and the portafilter. The handle does not get hot.

I was simply saying that if you pre-heat the PF (which one would probably want to do as it contacts the brew water directly) that it may be difficult to handle after pre-heating because it's entirely metal (including the handle). I also hypothesized that the shape of the PF might make it harder to fit into smaller spaces (some folks are preheating the flair - which has a silicone sleeve around it - directly IN their kettle). These are not criticisms, just general observations.

As I mentioned, all pour-over types are going to have the same temperature limitations/profile, roughly, and I feel that if you really want, you can get the water to <=95c initial temp (and when you have a procedure that works, consistency is easy).

But it's worth noting that expecting Slayer/Strada flat line temperature profiles on a) a small home lever machine and b) a machine that costs probably 60-70 times less is not possible. Lever machines tend to have a declining temperature profile throughout the shot.

Absolutely.

Paul,

Thanks for the temperature demonstration!


What is the max output volume we expect?

Paul_Pratt wrote:But it's worth noting that expecting Slayer/Strada flat line temperature profiles on a) a small home lever machine and b) a machine that costs probably 60-70 times less is not possible. Lever machines tend to have a declining temperature profile throughout the shot.

I've found the declining temperature profile an advantage for many coffees, where it helps extract more layers of flavor. The machine where I experience this most is my Conti Prestina, where the pressure also declines, something you can emulate on a manual lever.

Madman13 wrote:Paul,

Thanks for the temperature demonstration!


What is the max output volume we expect?

Certainly a 2:1 ratio is possible. Currently with 16g coffee I can get 42g of coffee in 1 press. If you do a 2nd press you can get a lot more but I do not recommend that as the 2nd press is always very watery, the only time I use the 2nd press is to express all the water prior to knocking out the puck.